What do you think he trained in during the 60s? If it was a running shoe it was a flat. Shoes are BS -- he's been quoted in interviews saying how modern running shoes are like matresses that weaken and deaden your feet, while Africans have an advantage of moving around on natural surfaces w/o footwear (and coincidentially, get hurt once in WEstern footwear...)
>>>the game has now changed. you will never see a guy train like a marathoner and win the 800m. there is just too much competition and you have to be incredibly fast to win world championships. it also seems that when speedier guys move up a distance, they perform very well. el g won the olympic 5k training like a miler. you will never see bekele train for the 5k and win the olympic 1500m. competition is just too steep now and the days of a coach taking a bunch of kiwis from the same hood and making them olympic champions is way over.
While the Lydiard method still rightly provides most of the basic many of us use today, over the ensuring time training has become very event specific as well as specific to the make-up of the athlete. There is more quality in the work. Some do well off "lower" mileage and higher quality, while others peform better off high mileage. 800m is a prime example. While alot of the basics may be similar, depending on whether you come from a "400m" type background (more quality training) or a more endurance background (hence more volume), training may differ by around 50km per week (ball park figure)at various times of the year with both athletes still achieving the same result.
my call wrote:
the game has now changed. you will never see a guy train like a marathoner and win the 800m. there is just too much competition and you have to be incredibly fast to win world championships. it also seems that when speedier guys move up a distance, they perform very well. el g won the olympic 5k training like a miler. you will never see bekele train for the 5k and win the olympic 1500m. competition is just too steep now and the days of a coach taking a bunch of kiwis from the same hood and making them olympic champions is way over.
a.) these East Africans spend the majority of their youth "marathon training." The point is to have a well established aerobic background.
b.) Haile Gebrselassie is the second fastest indoor 1500m runner ever (second to only El Guerrouj) and was world indoor 1500m champion in 1999. If you can run ~3:30, you can win an Olympic title. Geb's run about that, and I don't doubt that Bekele will as well.
c.) It's all about talent and work. These guys (the very best in the world today) represent the pinnacle of human achievement in middle and long distance running -- extremely talented and dedicated and the begin training in childhood. It's hard to beat, but, as Renato has said (and he should know) if a talented westerner was doing lots of natural aerobic running in his/her youth, they would have the same opportunities as those in East Africa.
>>> c.) It's all about talent and work. These guys (the very best in the world today) represent the pinnacle of human achievement in middle and long distance running -- extremely talented and dedicated and the begin training in childhood. It's hard to beat, but, as Renato has said (and he should know) if a talented westerner was doing lots of natural aerobic running in his/her youth, they would have the same opportunities as those in East Africa.
Not fully convinced. In this day and age it is much harder at the highest level, even allowing for Holmes and El G at the Olympics. With a good mileage base you can run well at most distances, but winning at multiple distances is more difficult than it used to be. Usually with training specificity required these days you run alot of distances well but one really well. It can be done but you need a really good athlete to do it (maybe 800/1500m or 5km/10km).
dc449 wrote:
Great discussion! I have a few things I've wondered about Lydiards system in the past, perhaps they could be answered here.
1) Why restrict hills to only 6 weeks (besides runs over rolling hills)? I know the workouts would vary throughout the year, but why would you not want to do hill circuits or sprints with full recovery (a la Renato), or long, say mile repeats uphill (or on flats) at say 15k-half marathon pace in base training?
1. The six week hill sessions are for transitioning to faster anaerobic work. No need to do them at other times. However, Arthur does, in a newer book, suggest doing 30-45 minutes of hill repeats as a second session during the base phase and as you note, it's fine to run on hilly courses.
2) It seems that you run at AT pace quite often (what I interpret "comfortably tired to mean), but nothing faster? Why not switch things up and do 20-30 mins at sat 5k pace plus 20 or so seconds a mile in place of one of the longer AT runs in a week? Just add to the cool down to make up for the shorter distance.
2. No, not during the base phase. The distance phase is to be done comfortably. You aren't supposed to worry about paces and faster stuff then. He doesn't want you dabbling with stuff that approaches anaerobic work. Just do the distance. Let the pace find you. Allow faster paces to come naturally.
3) All running on roads? I agree about doing key workouts on a flat road, but I would think that doing other runs on grass or trails would be beneficial in that it will strehgthen certain supporting muscles not really utilized in stable footed running.
3. Arthur thinks you get better traction on roads than on grass or trails and that translates into faster running at the same effort as you'd get on the soft surfaces. However, Barry Magee seems more a fan of running on softer ground. I'd suggest running on whatever surface suits you.
... the bump
[quote]my call wrote:
the game has now changed. you will never see a guy train like a marathoner and win the 800m. there is just too much competition and you have to be incredibly fast to win world championships. it also seems that when speedier guys move up a distance, they perform very well. el g won
bullshit. without epo el g. wins nothing. the runners today are more doped up --- not more talented.
How f***ing pathetic are we that we run home and hop on letsrun to see what the chatter is.
Great remark from Wetmore about letsrun. Now if he would only get his runners out of those big silly shoes and training in the proper footwear.
Who was that dude asking about pain? has he never been in a race before? has he never trained for something before? What a strange question.
LaWoof wrote:
How f***ing pathetic are we that we run home and hop on letsrun to see what the chatter is.
What the hell does that mean? Why is it pathetic?