Why do people think Jim Ryun was so great?

This is a quote from Craig Buster Mottram that may prove relevant, from

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/mottram-on-road-to-be-king-of-hill/story-e6frg7mf-1111113552347

Mottram trained on a cinders track in Arizona, the same type of surface that John Landy ran on in 1954 to become only the second man to break four minutes for the mile.

"What did John Landy run on a cinders track? It was 3(min) 58(sec) so I banged one of them out to say I could run 3:58 for a mile on a cinders track if I ever spoke to him," said Mottram, providing a stark illustration of how far middle-distance running has progressed in 50 years.

So in practice Craig Mottram (who's a 3:48 miler) dropped a 3:58 mile just for fun. If that's not good evidence against the cinders argument I don't know what is.

Certainly a 3:51 is a respectable time and it would be competitive even at the top level today, but to say he is superior than Kiprop or Webb in his prime is a huge leap of faith.

Also, while I'm at it :), I want to add that I am not trying to say that Alan Webb accomplished more in his career than Jim Ryun. Obviously Jim Ryun ran a world record and got a silver medal in the Olympics, which is more than Webb can say. My only argument is that if you were to somehow insert Jim Ryun in peak form to race Alan Webb when Webb ran 3:46, I don't think Ryun would stand a chance.

I'm sorry if this offends y'all.

moron

you're proving my point

a 3:48 miler ran 10 seconds slower over 1 mile on cinders

idiot

try this

someone who ran hundreds of races on cinder/dirt tracks and also competed on synthetic

he gives 1s/lap conversion

what you "think" it may have been worth is irrelevant

idiot

The Rocket. wrote:

My only argument is that if you were to somehow insert Jim Ryun in peak form to race Alan Webb when Webb ran 3:46, I don't think Ryun would stand a chance.

moron

what don't you understand about 1s/lap for cinders --> '70s synthetic?

idiot

what don't you understand about 1s/lap for drafting?

imbecile

what don't you understand about smoothing out massive negative splits to get intrinsic "worth"?

moron

what don't you understand about running a WR on tired legs from a qualifying heat run a day earlier?

idiot

learn something

imbecile

Do you feel better now?

Also Mottram ran that in practice all by himself.

1 second per lap is a convenient conversion that Ron Clarke uses.

Thanks for the video though. I enjoyed it.

The Rocket. wrote:

So what are you suggesting that she slows down, doesn't pursue her maximum potential and just gradually approaches the level that she could have been at years earlier with proper training?

Why should she, she's one of the few who survived her teen-hero-hood to become an adult hero. She should keep going full tilt, and drifting wide on turn 2 and other clever dirty racing tricks that she has learned during her long career.

That's another reason the wonder teens lose, they haven't had enough years to learn all the dirty tricks.

The Rocket. wrote:

Also, while I'm at it :), I want to add that I am not trying to say that Alan Webb accomplished more in his career than Jim Ryun. Obviously Jim Ryun ran a world record and got a silver medal in the Olympics, which is more than Webb can say. My only argument is that if you were to somehow insert Jim Ryun in peak form to race Alan Webb when Webb ran 3:46, I don't think Ryun would stand a chance.

I'm sorry if this offends y'all.

You dummy. Ryun ran 3:51WR in '66 all by himself from the start - no rabbit, cinders, and finished like it was a walk in the park. Could have easily gone 3secs faster that night.....on cinders.

Alan Webb is the fastest miler in HS history, that is a fact. He was the first to break 4 indoors and at his first outdoor attempt he crushed Ryun's record. He probably could've gone faster. Ryun was very good, but slower. That is a fact. Sorry this is had for you old farts to accept. Mary Cain is doing things right now that will just add to the list of reasons she's the best HS runner of all time a year from now.

Thundercats_GO wrote:

Alan Webb is the fastest miler in HS history, that is a fact. He was the first to break 4 indoors and at his first outdoor attempt he crushed Ryun's record. He probably could've gone faster. Ryun was very good, but slower. That is a fact. Sorry this is had for you old farts to accept. Mary Cain is doing things right now that will just add to the list of reasons she's the best HS runner of all time a year from now.

Didn't exactly crush Ryun's record - 3:53 v. 3:55. Furthermore, Webb's mile WR was rabitted and I doubt he could have gone much faster. Contrast that to Ryun's WR - no rabbit, dirt track, led from start to finish, and finished with a lot left in the tank.

Distance Maniac wrote:

Thundercats_GO wrote:

Alan Webb is the fastest miler in HS history, that is a fact. He was the first to break 4 indoors and at his first outdoor attempt he crushed Ryun's record. He probably could've gone faster. Ryun was very good, but slower. That is a fact. Sorry this is had for you old farts to accept. Mary Cain is doing things right now that will just add to the list of reasons she's the best HS runner of all time a year from now.

Didn't exactly crush Ryun's record - 3:53 v. 3:55. Furthermore, Webb's mile WR was rabitted and I doubt he could have gone much faster. Contrast that to Ryun's WR - no rabbit, dirt track, led from start to finish, and finished with a lot left in the tank.

Well I wish there was a way to quantify "a lot left in the tank" but that's not any sort of measurement I've ever heard of. How did you get this knowledge that he had a lot left in the tank? I heard Alan Webb was relaxed and has a lot more left in the tank than Ryun.

Ok. Let's throw out the 3:51 for a second, since it wasn't as fast as Ryun could have run do to pacing etc.. Instead lets compare Ryun's best performance, which was his 3:33.1 world record 1500m over Keino.

1. Ryun did not take the lead until the last 200 meters, so in one sense it almost was rabbited.

2. It was on a nice dirt track. Maybe 1 second/ mile slower per mile than an all weather track.

That being said he comes very close to Webb's PR of 3:30, so this is probably his strongest case.

My conclusion

1. In a paced race set at 3:30 Alan Webb wins due to a slight advantage in speed.

2. In a non-paced race Ryun outkicks Webb for the win.

I think we can all (well almost all) be somewhat comfortable with this reasonable conclusion.

Thundercats_GO wrote:

dirt track

I wonder how many of you have run on these much-maligned dirt and cinder tracks, who assume they're so much slower than modern tracks.

I give Ryun maybe a half second handicap from having to run through the alleged tar and quicksand. 3:50 low instead of 3:50 high. Neither is anywhere near Webb.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Thundercats_GO wrote:

dirt track

I wonder how many of you have run on these much-maligned dirt and cinder tracks, who assume they're so much slower than modern tracks.

I give Ryun maybe a half second handicap from having to run through the alleged tar and quicksand. 3:50 low instead of 3:50 high. Neither is anywhere near Webb.

I want to make it absolutely clear that I did not say the words "dirt track" did you just make up that quote or are you quoting someone else?

I ran my entire high school and college career on dirt tracks, actually. When they are done up and maintained correctly the difference is not as big as people make it to be.

People are so liberal with their seconds.

Oh a cinders track is worth four seconds.

No rabbits is worth another 4 seconds.

Pollution is worth 3 seconds.

Heat is worth two seconds.

He didn't pace it right 3 seconds.

He didn't have the correct nutrition 3 seconds... come on people stop making up wild conversions. If you've ever seen a competitive mile 3 seconds is a looong way.

I grew up in the late 70s early 80s in the Los Angeles area as "tartan" tracks were just coming into vogue. LA '84 really helped us because so many local tracks got all weather tracks for the Olympians to use as practice tracks. So most of my meets were on cinder/dirt tracks but occasionally I got to run at Birmingham, Arcadia or another all weather for a meet. 1 second per lap was a very conservative conversion for us. We got more like 1.5-2 per lap - and that was without 3 ounce spikes with aggressive spike plates.

My dirt PR is over 10 seconds slower than my tartan PR in the mile. My dirt PR is over 20 seconds slower in the 2 mile. (Yes, we actually ran mile and two mile in those days.)

I would put money that Kiprop et al could not run 3:51.1 if they were leading from step one, on dirt, and in Ryun's shoes (literally).

The Rocket. wrote:

Ok. Let's throw out the 3:51 for a second, since it wasn't as fast as Ryun could have run do to pacing etc.. Instead lets compare Ryun's best performance, which was his 3:33.1 world record 1500m over Keino.

1. Ryun did not take the lead until the last 200 meters, so in one sense it almost was rabbited.

2. It was on a nice dirt track. Maybe 1 second/ mile slower per mile than an all weather track.

That being said he comes very close to Webb's PR of 3:30, so this is probably his strongest case.

My conclusion

1. In a paced race set at 3:30 Alan Webb wins due to a slight advantage in speed.

2. In a non-paced race Ryun outkicks Webb for the win.

Don't know where you're getting the information that Webb had an advantage in speed over Ryun. Ryun closing speed, especially over the last 400, was vastly superior to anything Webb did.

The Rocket. wrote:

Also, while I'm at it :), I want to add that I am not trying to say that Alan Webb accomplished more in his career than Jim Ryun. Obviously Jim Ryun ran a world record and got a silver medal in the Olympics, which is more than Webb can say. My only argument is that if you were to somehow insert Jim Ryun in peak form to race Alan Webb when Webb ran 3:46, I don't think Ryun would stand a chance.

I'm sorry if this offends y'all.

You do know that Ryun ran a 3:33.1 1500m on a dirt track as well. That's worth a high-3:49 mile. You don't think a high-3:49 on dirt is comparable to a high-3:46 on a modern track?