Who is the best 1500m/Miler ever?

Ventolin, your lack of history astounds me and many

Go look at the videos please? Otherwise You LOOK LIKE A MORON

Ryun runs 3:33.1 drilling Keino Breaks the WR bbbbbby an astounding 2.5 secs, what does that equal on your stupid charts?

NO pacers

Then he kills him in London '67

If Not at altitude, Ryun wins 9 out of 10 times

Your history is weak, your logic is absurd

By the way all your other shit is weak. 45 and 46 years ago Jim Ryun ran 1:44.3 and 3:33.1, setting WR and in 15 y 2.5 secs, not tenths

Get over yourself really there is not one guy that Jim could have run against in THIS era that could beat him, and I just got that thought off video

Two races I saw were on cinders

He was a HORROR SHOW

The rest of your rhetoric is weak, look at the data and fast forward it to today, almost 45 year later and you are laughauble

Ryun was finished only by rules of the times.

Let me ask this seriously if after 21, who would he not have won agaisnt along the line?

Ryun ran faster in, than 50% of races go out in today

ill say El G morcelli cant handle El G hes a huge mangina

Trialswatcher wrote:

Ventolin, your lack of history astounds me and many

Go look at the videos please? Otherwise You LOOK LIKE A MORON

Ventolin IS a moron. And he's not just stupid, he has

and is delusional and paranoid.

Unfortunately for all of us, Ventolin is a deeply troubled, profoundly ill man who is apparently not getting the help he needs. This is what untreated mental illness looks like.

Ovett is out of consideration. Coe had the last laugh in their world record trade off and also beat him in the olympics. But that also doesn't reflect of Seb Coe well because he wasn't that dominant during his peak years, he had to compete with ovett and cram later on and his world record didn't last past cram.

El G didn't really have any one to seriously challenge him besides lagat running 3:27 and 3:26, and considering Lagat only won one of those showdowns and El G had multiple sub 3:30 clockings (How many exactly?) I would say that he is the best 1500m/miler ever.

Herb Elliott was the dominant "Miler" for two seasons '58 and '60). In '57 and '59 he had NO (zero) competitions against runners from Europa/America. And he also was few seconds behind the best times. And in '61 he practically was retired. Two years of dominance. Not five. Not four. Not three. Two years. How many years has El Guerrouj had? (and - just to clarify: I never was anything like a fan of El Guerrouj).

He has to be the Nr. 1 for 150m/Mile. It's not a question at all.

Here is a great link to show just how full of bull***t Ventolin (aka Eldrick) is

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22583

Pages 1 & 5 are particularly interesting.

On P. 1 (as Eldrick, who was banned from the site later) Ventolin clearly states,

"coe ran 1'41 over 25y ago & the record has only moved on by 1/2s since then ( give him a more modern track & record may not have moved at all ! ) "

This implies that tracks have got faster since 1981 and that Coe would have run faster on a modern one. Things he flatly refutes now.

On P. 5, he states, "a coe in '81 with anywhere between 45.0 - 46.0 & 3'47.33 mile for 800"

Again, he now dismisses anyone who suggests Coe was faster than 45.7. But he himself is quoted as saying he could have been faster.

On P. 3 he discusses Ryun,

"I'd have to put Ryun up there as well, as apparently his 1'44 was also on cinders - looking at film of his Mile WR, he struck me as a man who under ideal circumstances was capable of 51s pace from gun-to-tape ( i believe he was ~ mid-46 guy at the time & his 1500 record indicates 3'28 - 3'29 if flat out from gun to tape ( both times assumed to be equivalent on a modern synthetic track - indicates ~ 1'42.4 - 1'42.7 ability ) )

Interesting! So in 2006, not only did Ventolin not realize Ryun's 1:44.3 was on synthetic, but he also gave him a potential of 1:42.4- 1:42.7.

Somehow in the intervening 6 years he has found another 2 secs to knock off that time!

Perhaps he'll have Ryun running 1:38.4 by 2016.

The man is a fruitcake who changes his mind and makes things up on a whim, usually to be purposely contrary and obtuse to anyone who he doesn't agree with.

Because each Mile era is unique and different, you simply cannot name/select - debate, yes - the best Miler ever in a definitive, performance sense - Nurmi, Elliott, Snell, Ryun, Coe, El Guerrouj - all the best for their time periods.

In the abstract, cultural sense, however, Roger Bannister was/is the greatest or "best" Miler ever because his first sub-4 minute Mile in 1954 transcended the sport and he made sub-4 a landmark, a badge of achievement and part of our lexicon. What other track & field event has such an iconic, historic, still resonating moment that has gone beyond the sport? Moreover, what other sport has such a moment that is still so discussed, so revered, written about? Google away.

All Milers need to pay homage to Sir Roger and thank him for making the Mile (and by extension the 1500) and sub-4 "cool" and a universal measurement of success and recognition.

In short, Bannister is the locomotive for this train.

Coe on Olympics is best and had he been Morrocan would have been selected for and may have won the 3rd

Overall it's El G

Snell or Elliot would be contenders in any era as they were championship performers unlike Ryun who although unlucky was never proven to be a championship performer

You can only be the best in your own era though

what he said. but, to continue the debate anyway, let's look at possible blemishes for the legends to get a different perspective:

nurmi: hmmm, tough one. smaller competition pool i guess?

elliott: as mentioned, relatively short career.

snell: never set 1500 world record/barely broke elliott's mile record.

ryun: no gold.

keino: no world records.

bayi: no gold.

walker: hmmm, another tough one for me. no world records in the 1500. no commonwealth golds.

coe: yet another tough one for me. losing to ovett and cram at least a few times, maybe?

ovett: no gold in 1500.

morcelli: epo accusations aside, barcelona.

el g: epo accusations aside, sydney. and an 0-2 record against socal cush.

again, i'll still take elliott....

socal cush wrote:

[quote]Bring Back the Mile wrote:

nurmi: hmmm, tough one. smaller competition pool i guess?

elliott: as mentioned, relatively short career.

snell: never set 1500 world record/barely broke elliott's mile record.

ryun: no gold.

keino: no world records.

bayi: no gold.

walker: hmmm, another tough one for me. no world records in the 1500. no commonwealth golds.

coe: yet another tough one for me. losing to ovett and cram at least a few times, maybe?

ovett: no gold in 1500.

morcelli: epo accusations aside, barcelona.

el g: epo accusations aside, sydney. and an 0-2 record against socal cush.

again, i'll still take elliott....

So, you still stick to Elliott... that's - what should I say - astonishing.

So, what if Elliott wouldn't have retired in '61 (practically after Rome)? If he would have trained hard to compete with the best in the world and:

-reached the Olympic finale in '64 - but no chance to stay with Snell

-reached the Olympic finale in '68 - but no chance to stay with Keino, Ryun, Tümmler, Norpoth

- tried to go to Munich in '72, but wasn't selected.

In Munich '72 he was 34 years old, so an absolutely realistic scenario. In all those years from '61 to '72 maybe he would have had some good results, some victories, but also many defeats, some good times, but not anymore world beating times. His records would have been beaten by big margins (Ryun).

Would you still call him for Nr. 1? No, you wouldn't, I'm sure. His career would look more like Walker. Or Ovett. Or something like this. A great career, but no comparison to El Guerrouj, who dominated almost for a decade (yes, his career also wasn' perfect, I know).

So doing nothing in the sport (stopping at age 23, practically at age 22) is better than training hard for many years and trying to be one of the best in the world, but didn't reach that goal anymore. (which is the normal way)

Come on, it can't be like this.

I'm also still waiting for this 2-0. I've tried to figure out what you are talking. It just would be fair now to speak what you are really talking. Bulkovskiy lost in '97 against El Guerrouj. So what are you talking?

Ryun ran his WR 1:44 on an asphalt track.

He crushed Keino every time at sea level. Because the olympics were to be at altitude, physiologists advised him to train as hard as he possibly could. He interpreted that to mean doing hard intervals every day, which led to chronic achilles tendonitis, and ironically cost him valuable fitness. His biggest mistake was to not move to altitude a year before the games and train sensibly, but he was still in college and very much an amateur. Keino ran a remarkable race in Mexico, really one of the most astonishing performances ever. If you watch the video, you will realize how magnificant Ryun also ran in Mexico considering he was coming from sea level. I doubt very much that Ryun would have lost at sea level.

In Munich, Ryun had the fastest time of the year by far coming into the games, and I sense that he would have beaten Vasala, but who knows?

Ryun's autobiography goes into great detail about his struggles.

Elliot was insanely dominant. It's been said that three or four people go into a race thinking that they can win, and one person knows that they will win. When Elliot was in the race, none but Elliot thought that they could win. In his autobiography, Elliot wrote that if he ever went into a race thinking that he wasn't going to win, he would stop racing. Remember, he lived in a very isolated place in a time before easy travel. It took three days for his team just to get to Rome. He retired basically at 20 years old (although he ran a few races during the next two years) because there was no competition and as a true amateur he felt that it was more important to get on with his career. Sure, nowadays there are runners with greater talent and the travel is easier, money is in the sport and a living can be made, but who has been more ruthless and dominating than Elliot?

socal cush wrote:

nurmi: hmmm, tough one. smaller competition pool i guess?

elliott: as mentioned, relatively short career.

snell: never set 1500 world record/barely broke elliott's mile record.

ryun: no gold.

keino: no world records.

bayi: no gold.

walker: hmmm, another tough one for me. no world records in the 1500. no commonwealth golds.

coe: yet another tough one for me. losing to ovett and cram at least a few times, maybe?

ovett: no gold in 1500.

morcelli: epo accusations aside, barcelona.

el g: epo accusations aside, sydney. and an 0-2 record against socal cush.

again, i'll still take elliott....

There were rumors about Coe, too. socal cush--did you know Jeff Atkinson? Do you know why he insisted Coe blood-doped? Did Steve Scott ever share any suspicions with you?

tough to know definitively about rumors, even with el g or morcelli. if i had to put money on it, though, i know how i would bet. i would HATE to think coe was on anything, or even said aouita, despite what is purported to be known out there. that does NOT mean it would surprise me...

speaking of which, @ said88: i didn't mean to be mysterious or self-serving, but i'm christian cushing murray (socal cush), a 3:55 miler from the mid-90s. i beat el g in brussels and berlin in 94, and i don't think i ever raced him again, so 2-0 against him. i think it's funny, and not necessarily a badge of honor. i'm happy to have been in a sentence, and a couple of races with him, as well as morcelli and others. elliott still is my pick: undefeated is the only thing that, to me, separates him from the field. you can pose whatever what ifs you want, it's just my opinion. if i gotta pick someone, he's it, but truth is you couldn't go too wrong with most of whom i've listed...

moron

it's ventolin

wrong

tracks have been limited to 65% energy return by iaaf for decades

track like firenze which i doubt anyone changed for years, as nothing meet with no money, was likely baked rock-hard under years of the hot italian sun & likely as fast as any of modern, new layed tracks, which again, can't be more than 65% return

i highly doubt firnze was energy tested after coe's wr

moron

see above

moron

the figure i go with is 45.7

idiot

it's ventolin

ryun ran his 1'44.3 on grasstex, a primitive semi-synthetic mulch of tyre shavings/dirt

guys who ran on that/cinders said, it was not any faster than dirt & in fact only existed because it was an all-weather track & didn't get waterlogged like dirt, saving maintenance cost

it wasn't created for speed but for maintenance

as soon as viable proper synthetic tracks came affordable, no one bothered with grasstex

i'd offer ryun's 1'44.3 as 1'42.3 on '70s synthetic

then factor in illness forcing him to -ve split & 1'50 prelim & that's easily into low 1'41s if rested/well

then factor in that this was '66 - his peak was '67 when he was 2.5s faster over 1500

that gets him into low-1'40s

moron

where do you see "ventolin" next to the poster ???

moron

learn to read

low-1'40/low-3'24

that is my prediction for him for all-time

moron

bringing up some other poster & saying those are ventolin's thoughts is a desperate & idiotic measure

This video may help you understand Ventolin. But remember, Asperger syndrome is only ONE of Ventolin's pathologies:

f*ck off moron

ventolin^3 wrote:

f*ck off moron

Ventolin, it's very important that others here at LRC learn how to deal with someone with your special needs. You are not like vast majority of LRC posters, who are "NTs", or

.

socal cush wrote:

speaking of which, @ said88: i didn't mean to be mysterious or self-serving, but i'm christian cushing murray (socal cush), a 3:55 miler from the mid-90s. i beat el g in brussels and berlin in 94, and i don't think i ever raced him again, so 2-0 against him. i think it's funny, and not necessarily a badge of honor. i'm happy to have been in a sentence, and a couple of races with him, as well as morcelli and others. elliott still is my pick: undefeated is the only thing that, to me, separates him from the field. you can pose whatever what ifs you want, it's just my opinion. if i gotta pick someone, he's it, but truth is you couldn't go too wrong with most of whom i've listed...

Oh, now I understand. socol cush(ing-murray...). I didn't have the full result for Brussels '94, that's the mistake, so I couldn't find what you are talking.

It's really a interesting and funny note: you have a 2-0 win-loss record against Hicham El Guerrouj - that's great!