Which runner has demontrated the greatest range of running abilty?

Gyver wrote:

Steve Cram

800 m 1:42.88 1985

1000 m 2:12.88 1985

1500 m 3:29.67 1985

Mile 3:46.32 1985

2000 m 4:51.39 1985

2 Miles 8:14.93 1983

5000 m 13:28.58 1989

Marathon 2:35 1999

I have also heard he ran sub 46, 21 point and sub 11 in the 100, which considering his 800m pr is not hard to believe.

I agree with general consensus that Aouita has proven to have the best range.

I seriously doubt that Cram has even approached running sub 46 for 400m. Low 47's maybe at his peak. A 21 point is also unlikely for 200. He didn't have the same basic raw speed of Coe or Ovett, and even Ovett never broke 47 for 400 flat.

Ovett ran 200m successfully as a Junior, but not really when he was winning medals in the middle distances.

Certainly he showed amazing range in '77 with a half Marathon victory (65 mins I think) and the World Cup 1500 title a couple of weeks later!!

Coe's range is also impressive. Member of UK 4 x 400m relay (45.5) in '79 and 4 Miles on road in 17:54, beating Coghlan, McLoud and Foster's course record.

The other person who stands out with Aouita is Geb, of course; 1500m - Marathon.

-Dixon didn't run his 1500m best indoors.

-Dixon had years to focus on the 1500m whereas it was a secondary focus for Gebrselassie

-It's significant that the only person who has ever ran faster for 1500m(i) than Gebrselassie is El Guerrouj.

Coe's range is also impressive. Member of UK 4 x 400m relay (45.5) in '79 and 4 Miles on road in 17:54, beating Coghlan, McLoud and Foster's course record.

[/quote]

which race was this 4 miler? No mention of this in Born to Run.

It was an annual 4 Mile road race in Ireland (haven't got access to nam at moment,....something like Loghlea!)in October.

Brendan Foster won it in 1977 in 17:58, a course record. The next year (78) Coe outkicked Coghlan and Mcloud to win in 17:54, at the end of a season where he'd practically specialised only over 800.

He also beat Cova (admittedly before he was at his best)over 7.5km at the Vigevano road race in 1980, running 20:59. And won the 6.7km edition of the race in 1983 (18:28)

As they weren't on the track not many people know about them.

It was the Loughrea 4 Miles, and the course record by Brendan Foster was 18:05. Coe's time was 17:54 though, with Coghlan second in 17:55.

Two factors in discussing "range" are being implied here, yet need to made explicit:

1)Quality of marks should be measured relative to CONTEMPORARY times, i.e. World Best marks at the time of the performance.

2)The PERFORMANCE CURVE of the individual should be accounted for. For instance, if Usain Bolt were to run say, 43.9 for 400, it would represent excellent *absolute* range, but relative to his 100/200 times, it would not be as impressive *relatively*

On this basis,

-Geb clearly is superior on the basis of 1) above,as his 1500i is just off of the WR and his marathon IS the WR.

-Aouita has a 10,000 that is within <2 seconds per mile of the WR at the time, but his 800, impressive though it is to us, was 5-6 sec. off the WR.

-Dixon was, by contrast, <2 sec off of the 1500 WR, as well as <2 sec/mile of the marathon WR (2:08:18 at the time). Throw in his cross-country achievements, and the edge goes to Dixon for runner-up to Geb for best overall range.

pen envy wrote:

Alan Webb has probably had the greatest range within one season.

I don't know whether Henry Rono ran any mile races in 1978, but I believe his four world records from 3000 -10000, plus a 1:04:52 half marathon win at San Blas, might put him ahead of Webb in the single season results ranking.

Dixon's performances are quite impressive. But I think we need to put more weight on the shorter 800m over the 1500m.

Aouita was ranked #1 in world at 800m! This is after dominating the 5000. I suspect if he had not been injured (he appeared to be injured) at the 88 Oly, he might have won the race? Yea, he was off the world record quite a bit but his 1:43.86 is the 312th fastest, his 3:29.46 is 49th, Geb's 3:31.76 is 310th fastest on the all list.

That 2:03:59 marathon is still screaming at me though!

Kip Keino might deserve honorable mention for range or maybe versatility. From the 'Great Distance Runners' web site mentioned above:

800 – 146.41 respectable

1500/mile – 3:34.86/3:53.1 both second best @ the time

3k – 7:39.6 WR @ the time

5k – 13:24.2 WR @ the time

10k – 28:06.4 third best @ the time

steeple – 8:23.64 seventh best @ the time

Don't know if he ever ran the marathon.

I agree that Aouita/Geb/Dixon are tops in this category though.

unsure wrote:

But because Aouita actually took on the 800 world, I think that put's him over Geb on this issue, even though Gebs range from 1500 to marathon is quite great.

So you are discounting Geb's marathon career because he didn't run the Olympics in that event? You're kidding, right? He did indeed take on the best of the marathon, in fact in his very first senior marathon when he battled the then WR holder KK and future WR holder Tergat. in London. And the rest of the field was stacked too. He got 3rd. I'd say that alone is almost as impressive as Aouita's bronze in the 800. And Aouita certainly never set a WR at 800, or of course even came close to doing so. Geb has set TWO WR's at the marathon, and has been world leader several years. I'd say his marathon career, despite the lack of medal, is more distinguished than Aouita's 800 career. Score one for Geb.

Furthermore, since you are discounting Geb's marathon career somewhat due to him not "taking on the marathon world", why even consider Aouita's 10,000 pr ? It was a one time deal for him in a non-championship race. It was an excellent time, but of course slower than even Salazar had run a few years earlier.

Geb has an absolute stellar record from 1500 to marathon. With gold medals and/or WR's at every event in that range (except steeple of course). This is certainly more impressive than Aouita's 800-5000 career, with a single 10,000 thrown in.

For once we have a debate where there is a very easy answer, and that answer is Geb. Yet this thread has lasted ALL of these pages?? Only on letsrun, only on letsrun.

(the whole thread should have been answered in 3 letters, not 10 pages: G-E-B. )

There is too much to go through to so I do not know if others have made this point. I think that it is interesting to look at one period in time; that is, one season. Barringer had college-leading marks for 1500/(3000?i?)/3000SC/5000. I have speculated that if she had raced a good 10,000 and 800 she might have gotten close to having everything above 400 -- some range, including doing it over the SC.

Of course, this brings up Rono, who had a track season of legend 3000SC, 5000, 10,000, 3000 and WRs to boot and big ones too.

I think its Dixon and Geb. I consider there to be three traditional groupings of "distance" events (although I acknowledge that there are not clear boundaries):

800-1,500;

5,000-10,000;

Marathon

Dixon and Geb competed in all three. Dixon competed seriously at all three at one point or another (I concede that Dixon kept moving up because he was never the best at any shorter events). Geb was more of an interloper in the 1,500 (a successful one) and probably the greatest runner of all time overall.

Aouita competed in only two and was an interloper in the second.

Does anyone ever know if Dixon or Meb have ever been tested to explain their range (muscle biopsy/VO2/efficiency)?

Agree with Sir Lance

If you look Geb's world records set at different distances he has the greatest range. From 2,000m indoors to the Marathon. I would take the 2,000m indoors out as not being run enough and say from his 3,000i up to the marathon. He got most distance records inbetween as well

Said managed 1500m to 5,000m world records

Sir Lance-alot Wrote:

So you are discounting Geb's marathon career because he didn't run the Olympics in that event? You're kidding, right?.....

-----------------------------------------------------------

No, I'm not "discounting" his 2:03:59! The point of the question is range of running ability. In this I meant combination of speed and endurance. I put more weight on the 800 because success in it requires more raw leg speed than the 1500 and up. The 10000 and marathon are not the same, but you're not going to find many pure 800, 400 etc runner excelling in them.

When I think of a 10000 & marathon runner, I don't think of that runner as demostrating great range in running ability. Again, lets think about the Olympic & world champion types.

But a runner who was ranked #1 in world with Oly Bronze at 800 and held the WR at 1500 & 5000 (12:58.41, the 172nd fastest performance alltime) and ran a 10000 in 27:26.11 (315th fastest performance alltime)is hard to beat as far as demostrated performance in speed & endurance goes.

That said, Geb is still overall the greatest runner of all time based on total accomplishments...titles,WRs & longevity.

That might be true, because he was the only runner ranked No.1 in 800, 1500, 5000 and 10000m, but other greats like Kenenisa, Geb or Kipchoge also had a great range from 1500 to marathon. For Geb and Kenny B. i think they were capable of sub 3:30 1500.

People are also throwing names such as Choge or Lagat, but in comparison with previous - they are second-tier athletes (no WRs, no Olympic golds).

Someone said Webb - but he had only one good season and is barely third-thier athlete.

I'll tell ya that you all forgot the man who had perhaps even greater range than Aouita and that was Kip Keino. Like Aouita, he went down from contesting 10k at the '68 Olympics to steeple and even 800m in '72.

Apart from his WRs at 3 and 5k in '65, his legendary 1500m gold in Mexico that is still the greatest Oly performance in 1500m final, three CG golds, he run 28:06 10k just before the Games - third fastest ever for the distance, still 27 secs behind Clarke's WR.

In '72, just before the Olympics he ran 800m PR of 1:46.4 - only 2.1 seconds behind existing WR and than won another Olympic gold in 3000msc, missing the WR by 1.6 secs in a tactical final.

If you translate his performances to year 2020 his times would be abnormal

Look at the line -

800m - 1:43.0

1500m - 3:27.8

mile - 3:45.1 (run 3.53.1 in altitude race in Kenya on cinders)

3000m - 7:20.6

5000m - 12:43

10000m - 26:38

AND

steeplechase - 7:55.2

That was Kip from 1965 to 1972.

Sadly, there's no runner nearly capable of that today.

middle distance wrote:

I agree with general consensus that Aouita has proven to have the best range.

Ovett ran 200m successfully as a Junior, but not really when he was winning medals in the middle distances.

Certainly he showed amazing range in '77 with a half Marathon victory (65 mins I think) and the World Cup 1500 title a couple of weeks later!!

The other person who stands out with Aouita is Geb, of course; 1500m - Marathon.

Aouita was an 800m runner in 1988 when he won his bronze (to go along with his only other middle-distance medal - a bronze at Helsinki). He didn't even run the 5000m that year.

Similarly in 1986 when he ran his 10000m pb. He ran only two 1500m races that season, and his times were 3:36 and 3:38.

Aouita's 'range' was the result of blood doping, hgh, roids, and being the only athlete in history to deliberately drop down or move up events each season to avoid other competitors, keep his winning streak going, and bolster his 'greatest range ever' legend.

Steve Ovett, who we have no reason whatsoever to believe was doping, and in any case wouldn't have had access to some of the things Aouita was almost certainly taking, let alone the likes of the EPO era Africans, had a far more impressive range.

In 1978, he broke the two mile world record, in a real race, beating perhaps the greatest natural talent from East Africa in the process who was having an insane year himself, breaking multiple distance world records. He did this just 2 weeks after running 1:44.0 in coming second to a doper in the 800m Europeans, and then winning easily the 1500m. He only lost to doper Beyer in the 800m because he was focused on Coe in that race. He slowed I think twice in that race, apart from the suicidal first lap of Coe, so he was likely capable of breaking the world record that day in an optimal paced record attempt.

The year before that he ran 13:20 in his first or second ever 5000m, still only 21, and still in the process of moving up from really being a 400/800m athlete to a middle-distance runner.

If Ovett had entered the 5000m in Moscow 1980 he would have been favorite alongside Yifter.

Another fun fact about Ovett. Ovett's pbs at 21 in every event from 800m to the half-marathon (other than the 1000m which he didn't race) would have been the world record just 15 years before (with the ironic exception of the 1500m because of Herb Elliott's outlier WR).

*other than the 10000m

Whoever keeps bumping all these "range GOAT" threads, I'm enjoying the victory lap I started more than a year ago after Choge's first sub 60 HM.

SUB

1:45

3:30

7:30 (4x)

13

60 (2x)

Every single benchmark, only missing the sub 27 10,000 because it was a has-been distance by the time he moved up. Indisputable at this point.

Coevett - I'm in real love with Ovett, but when it's over - it's over. I interviewed Aouita some 25 years ago and this little prick said to me - "Ovett was my idol, but when I finished in front of him in '83 I suddenly had no more intentions to destroy him on the track, I felt sorry for him and I tried to avoid him every possible time. I remember race in Spain in '87 when he tried to get qualifying time for WC in Rome and I helped him, in fact. I could put 50m on him in the last lap, but I've always looked where he is and he was second to me and qualified for the Worlds..." Believe me or not (Seb Coe said the same after training with him) - Aouita was gentleman...