lagat 3:32.56 in Morocco

yea i dont think he is dirty.. he is a kenya if he is dirty that means all Kenyas are dirty.. think about it

i think that the man is just fast.. i say good for him he is representing the US.

jingle bowels wrote:The fact is Ventolin, he did have nothing better than 1.46, he raced the 800 many times, in good races and I think it is fair to assume if he was capable of 1.44 he would have run it.

So we have someone running (albeit fairly random) segments of a 1500 race at very close to his 800 PB. That to me is very suspicious, that is not natural endurance.

Lagat remains a 1:46/3:26 runner, which is quite the anomaly. If you think this is normal I would suggest it is you that does not know shit about the sport!

to you & your fellow numbskull, tell me how many 800s he ran in '01 or '04 ( 3'26 & 3'27 days ) against likes of kip, borza, bucher, bugei with the wabbit going thru in 49.5 - 50.0 with bernie within a coupla strides behind ???

how many instead were races with "nobodies", with wabbit going thru in 51.0 - 51.5+ with no pick-up to 600 leaving it down to a 200 race where bernie was up backing his high-47/low-48 speed against high-46/low-47 guys ???

you clearly are clueless about the affair

the tellez camp came down with flu/cold ( ever heard about contagiousness of flu ??? swine flu teach you anything ??? ) & lewis, deloach & heard iirc all ended up testing +ve for a stimulant in a cold remedy

there was no conspiracy amongst them as there was no one in their class over 200m & the olympic 200 final was going to be a straight shoot-out between lewis & deloach ( within no one else in the world having a prayer ) & both taking the same medication gave neither an advantage over the other

usoc in their infinite wisdom realised immediately the athletes concerned had made an innocent mistake & instead of annuling their performances at the meet ( which is about all you got for this misdemeanour ) which meant the 2 outstanding favorites woudn't go to seoul, decided that it was better to ignore these +ves & give them a confidential warning

now learn something :

usoc's action saved a huge travesty of injustice being performed 20y ago :

look at wada's list :

look at s6 & the appendix :

these were the type of stimulant they tested +ve ( the stimulants in the banned list are all effectively amphetamines )

under today's rules with 20y of more research, wada considers these inconsequential drugs with no penalty

the doping offences at the time proved to be flawed ( a ban for a drug no longer considered helpful to performance )& a huge miscarriage of justice was prevented by allowing them to compete - saving probably what wouda been a huge lawsuit many years later by lewis/deloach against the authorities for being banned for a now non-existent offence

as for pound, he is a obssesive moron who has been on the back of every drug story since he ran wada - learn something - he wanted presidency of ioc, but no one coud stand him & voted in rogge instead, but pound had so much clout that he had to be given a bone - & they gave him newly formed wada, where he proved an inflammatory & divisive figure, for which wada is eternally grateful that he was recently pensioned off

ventolin wrote:

to you & your fellow numbskull, tell me how many 800s he ran in '01 or '04 ( 3'26 & 3'27 days ) against likes of kip, borza, bucher, bugei with the wabbit going thru in 49.5 - 50.0 with bernie within a coupla strides behind ???

how many instead were races with "nobodies", with wabbit going thru in 51.0 - 51.5+ with no pick-up to 600 leaving it down to a 200 race where bernie was up backing his high-47/low-48 speed against high-46/low-47 guys ???

ah ventolin you have come up with quite a specific race scenario haven't you? Why are you setting him up to run a 1.42 though? 1.44 races happen in relative "nobody" meets all the time, ask KD, and 51 is fast enough, you don't need kip, borza et al to run 1.44.

The below stats were kindly contributed by someone else on another thread.

You see I think you can make the assumption for some athletes, but not Lagat. His career is too long and he has raced 800's too many times to automatically believe he could run 2 seconds faster.

1.44 is a time 3.30 runners do, even out of shape or rounding into shape a 3.26 man should be able to run 1.44. Lagat couldn't do it EVER despite all the below attempts.

1998: 1:46.02, run July 29. Had run 3:34.48 on July 17.

1999: 1:46.06, August 8 in Köln. He ran 3:30.56 three days later. Earlier in indoors he had produced a 1:47.07, also roughly worth ~1:46 flat.

He didn't run an outdoor 800 in 2001 but hit #2 all-time 3:26.34. Indoors he only managed 1:48.83.

2000: 1:46.85, June 15. Interestingly, he ran his SB 3:28.51 once again on August 11.

2002: 1:46.90 on March 30. SB 3:27.91 on July 17, same day as in 1998!

2003: 1:46.00 PR on August 10. SB 3:30.55 in Zurich five days later.

2004: 1:46.96, April 18. Ran 3:27.40 on August 6, defeating El Guerrouj (3:27.64).

2005: 1:47.07, May 7. Recorded 3:29.30 in Rieti on September 7.

2006: DNR 800. SB 1500 of 3:29.68.

2007: DNR 800. SB 1500 of 3:33.85.

2008: DNR 800. SB 1500 of 3:32.75.

Lagat has run 21 races over 800m. Compared with 181 at 1500m or the mile.Look at when are where his seasonal bests were set:July 1998 1:46.02 Paris February 1999 1:47.07Ai RenoAugust 1999 1:46.06 KölnJune 2000 1:46.85 HelsinkiMarch 2001 1:46.90 Palo AltoAugust 2003 1:46.00 BerlinApril 2004 1:46.96 WalnutMay 2005 1:47.07 KingstonJuly 2009 1:46.84 LausanneEarlier in his career, he recorded a few races in the summer right around 1:46.0, but he also had a 1:47.0 indoors at altitude. For perspective, Rich Kenah's best indoor 800m was 1:46.16 set after two rounds at sea level, and he went on to run 1:43.38 that season.After that, most of his 800m seasonal bests came at early season meets at Stanford, Mt. SAC and Kingston. The fact that he ran within a second of his lifetime best as an old man in shitty conditions is indicative that 1:46.00 is not the absolute maximum of his all-time ability.You write about "natural endurance." Some of the Kenyan's and Ethiopians exhibit endurance on a level that is nearly impossible for a non-African to attain, simply because of the hundreds and thousands of generations that have lived and died at altitude before them. No one from America who has run 3:30 would have struggled to break 50sec for 400m. But Gebrselassie and Bekele do. They're hearts and their circulatory systems can operate on that edge longer and harder than anyone else. The same way of thinking you have applied to yourself and your peers in America and Europe doesn't work the same applied to them. It's a whole different animal.

jingle bowels wrote:

ventolin wrote:

go time his 1st & last laps in his 3'26 - it adds up to 1'47 with 700m of brutally hard running inbetween

if you seriously believe he had nothing better than 1'46 at the time, you know shit about this sport

The fact is Ventolin, he did have nothing better than 1.46, he raced the 800 many times, in good races and I think it is fair to assume if he was capable of 1.44 he would have run it.

So we have someone running (albeit fairly random) segments of a 1500 race at very close to his 800 PB. That to me is very suspicious, that is not natural endurance.

Lagat remains a 1:46/3:26 runner, which is quite the anomaly. If you think this is normal I would suggest it is you that does not know shit about the sport!

well put

by the logic on this thread Billy Mills must have been doping because when he won the Olympic 10k they went through a second off his PR for 5k. So after that Olympics his 5k PR did not prove that he could run that fast of a 10K. (and yes as I read that it makes absolutely no sense to me either, which proves the point)

This thread is stupid. Why are we ranting and raving about a 3:32. That kind of time was a big deal 30 years ago but is a pretty ordinary time these days. Shoot when guys like Morceli and El G ran a 3:32 it would be considered an off day. I barely remember El G ever running a time that slow during the Jul/Aug/Sep period.

Earlier in his career, he recorded a few races in the summer right around 1:46.0, but he also had a 1:47.0 indoors at altitude. For perspective, Rich Kenah's best indoor 800m was 1:46.16 set after two rounds at sea level, and he went on to run 1:43.38 that season.

Kenah was predominantly an 800m runner, and times set indoors don't have much bearing on what one is capable outdoors. Coe ran 1:46.0 indoors in 81 and went on to run 1:41.7 outdoors. So if there is that strong a correlation, shouldn't Lagat have run 1:42.** after running 1:47 indoors? On the other hand Kipketer ran 1:42.69 indoors in 97 and improved by only 1.5 outdoors. There is no connection between indoor and outdoor times as different athletes have different reasons/expectations for running indoors in Feb/March time.

fawn lebowitz wrote:-

"You write about "natural endurance." Some of the Kenyan's and Ethiopians exhibit endurance on a level that is nearly impossible for a non-African to attain, simply because of the hundreds and thousands of generations that have lived and died at altitude before them. No one from America who has run 3:30 would have struggled to break 50sec for 400m. But Gebrselassie and Bekele do. They're hearts and their circulatory systems can operate on that edge longer and harder than anyone else. The same way of thinking you have applied to yourself and your peers in America and Europe doesn't work the same applied to them. It's a whole different animal."

Perhaps "SOME" is the key word there, as there are many examples of African athletes who display the sort of 800m times one would expect from their 1500 pbs. I just picked a random few names from the last 25 years:-

Said Aouita~ 1:43.86 ~ 3:29.47 (and he was more of a 1500/5k type like Lagat);

N. Morcelli ~ 1:44.79(91) ~ 3:27.37 (3:31.00 in 91);

Miike Boit ~ 1:43.57 ~ 3:33.67 (3:49.45 Mile worth nearer 3:32);

Omer Khalifa ~ 1:44.75 ~ 3:33.28 (both in 86);

Joseph Chesire ~ 1:44.38 ~ 3:34.32;

N. Ngeny ~ 1:44.49 (2:11.96 1000m has to be= to 1:42.5 at least) ~ 3:28.12;

Augustine Choge ~ 1:44.86 ~ 3:29.47;

All of these marks look reasonable and none stand out as much as Lagat's comparable pbs; with perhaps the exception of Ngeny's 800pb. Morceli & Aouita are the closest to Lagat in terms of the fact they they were more "endurance" based athletes as Lagat appears to be. But even their 800m times are considerably faster than Lagat's. Even more interesting, however, is that both were considerably faster than Lagat over 2000 & 3000 as well! Surely if Lagat was one of the very few African athletes you speak of who exhibits (in light of his mediocre 800m pb) a "nearly impossible" to comprehend endurance level, then his 2000 & 3000pbs would be considerably faster too?

The fact that they are not make him even more of an ANOMALY, and certainly not a good subject to be scrutised using Ventolin's magic formula.

However, Ventolin will keep maintaining this time and that time as Lagat's true potential, despite evidence to the contrary, yet fail to show even half the leeway given Lagat in his summation of other athletes.

AW Fan wrote:

This thread is stupid. Why are we ranting and raving about a 3:32. That kind of time was a big deal 30 years ago but is a pretty ordinary time these days. Shoot when guys like Morceli and El G ran a 3:32 it would be considered an off day. I barely remember El G ever running a time that slow during the Jul/Aug/Sep period.

Which only goes to show how things have changed (i.e gone backwards) since the late '90's/early '00's.

3:32 will get you a place on the top 10 for each of the last 3 (including this, so far) seasons and is still a good bench mark of real world class.

any reason you left El G off of that list? Hasn't he run faster 5ks than Said Aouita AND Lagat?

Also, theres his supposed 1:42 in training. I for one believe that he did run a 1:42. Why didn't he race the 800 then? Look at the man's record. He was a serious, focused professional - He was concerned with one and only one thing - dominating the 1500m. He was not about to let a lick of defeat into his confidence by racing the 800m with the likes of Kipketer and Borza around.

One of the things you do to be a champion is to protect your confidence. Without total confidence, you'll never be your best.

epopians wrote:

Kenah was predominantly an 800m runner, and times set indoors don't have much bearing on what one is capable outdoors. Coe ran 1:46.0 indoors in 81 and went on to run 1:41.7 outdoors. So if there is that strong a correlation, shouldn't Lagat have run 1:42.** after running 1:47 indoors? On the other hand Kipketer ran 1:42.69 indoors in 97 and improved by only 1.5 outdoors. There is no connection between indoor and outdoor times as different athletes have different reasons/expectations for running indoors in Feb/March time.

Agreed, Lagat is also close to being the undisputed "king of the boards"... a.k.a the best indoor runnner around, so why should we expect him to heaps faster outdoors?

Again epopian is correct, I would readily accept Lagats 'super endurance' if he was running low 7.20's and 12.30's because no super endurance freak has ever run 3.26, if lagat was in this category he should be tearing shit up.

epopians wrote:

Which only goes to show how things have changed (i.e gone backwards) since the late '90's/early '00's.

3:32 will get you a place on the top 10 for each of the last 3 (including this, so far) seasons and is still a good bench mark of real world class.

Really? I went through the numbers:

1996

2 under 3:30

10 under 3:30 (5 between 3:33.00 and 3:33.30)

1997

4 under 3:30

16 under 3:33

1998

2 under 3:30

15 under 3:33

1999

2 sub 3:30

17 sub 3:33

2000

3 under 3:30

15 under 3:33

2001

3 under 3:30

18 under 3:33

2002

2 under 3:30

14 under 3:33

2003

2 under 3:30

16 under 3:33

2004

2 under 3:30

23 under 3:33

2005

2 under 3:30

14 under 3:33

2006

2 under 3:30

17 under 3:33

2007

0 under 3:30

14 under 3:33

2008

0 under 3:30

14 under 3:33

How were the 1990s that much high powered than this decade?

By the way, I took out notable cheats like Ramzi and Saïdi-Sief from the totals.

wow hold up wrote:

any reason you left El G off of that list? Hasn't he run faster 5ks than Said Aouita AND Lagat?

Also, theres his supposed 1:42 in training. I for one believe that he did run a 1:42. Why didn't he race the 800 then? Look at the man's record. He was a serious, focused professional - He was concerned with one and only one thing - dominating the 1500m. He was not about to let a lick of defeat into his confidence by racing the 800m with the likes of Kipketer and Borza around.

One of the things you do to be a champion is to protect your confidence. Without total confidence, you'll never be your best.

I left ELG off the list because he didn't run 800m after 1995 (1:47.18). I personally don't believe he ran 1:42 in training for 1 minute. The reason?

Well, I agree with you that he wanted to maintain an air of invincibility and was mainly focussed on the 1500m. He wouldn't have been so dominant at 800m. However, if he really could run 1:42.7 in training, then he surely could have run even faster in a proper race? The argument about him having to face the likes of Kip and Borza is a weak one. You're telling me that someone of EL G's status couldn't run in a low key event on the circuit a few times a year, and ensure that no one with sub 1:43 ability ran in the same race? He could easily find the right race to fine tune his speed close to a championships.

The alternative reason why he never ran one 800m after 1995, is that his true potential was much slower than one would expect from someone who could run 1500m in 3:26; a la Lagat.

Had he run them regularly and not been able to break 1:44, then the same questions would have been asked of him as Lagat.

ok, sure.

maybe that was the strategy though. to make everyone think that he had no 800m ability. as you saw in the 2004 olympics, he let it come to a sit n kick race, and he dusted everyone - even the renowned kickers. El G was not supposed to be able to do that, especially as an "older" athlete let alone when he was more youthful. Also, when El G was just breaking out in the early 90s, he outkicked the likes of cacho and morceli.

So, I conclude that he spent the majority of his career hiding his sprint ability.

Comparatively, 3:32 (and I was taking 3:32.0 not 3:32.99) would have ranked 7th in 2008 (only 0.51 slower than the top ranked athlete), 10th in 2007 (1.46 behind the fastest) and 6th (currently) this year (2.53 behind leader)

In 1998 ~12th (6.00 behind!)

1999 ~ 12th (4.35 behind);

2000 ~ 10th (4.79 behind).

The gap between the fastest and 3:32 has definitely reduced in the last few years.

It's even more obvious when you look at the number of marks under 3:32:-

1997 ~ 38!

1998 ~ 26

1999 ~ 28

2000 ~ 20

2006 ~ 17

2007 ~ 11

2008 ~ 8

Of course a lot more of the sub 3:32 runs in the late '90's were from 2 or 3 athletes, but 3:32 today is worth a lot more than it was 10 years ago.

wow hold up wrote:

ok, sure.

maybe that was the strategy though. to make everyone think that he had no 800m ability. as you saw in the 2004 olympics, he let it come to a sit n kick race, and he dusted everyone - even the renowned kickers. El G was not supposed to be able to do that, especially as an "older" athlete let alone when he was more youthful. Also, when El G was just breaking out in the early 90s, he outkicked the likes of cacho and morceli.

So, I conclude that he spent the majority of his career hiding his sprint ability.

I get what you're saying, and this could well be the case.

However, it depends what you mean by "kick". To me it means a quick, almost instantaneous increase in pace somewhere on the last lap. To be fair to Cacho and Morceli (who had a superior change of pace than EL G), both were past their peak when EL G started beating them.

I think EL G was more of a "winder-upper" from 400-700m out; a bit like Cram. He knew that if he didn't increase the tempo before the bell, there were others with a quicker change of pace in the closing stages. EL G was so good though, that he rarely let such a scenario happen. He used his superior speed endurance.

All this doesn't necessarily mean he was that fast over 800m.

This post explains why you picked to post under your name you're posting under.

xxx,

Can you tell me why everyone here is so dumb?

-sdfsf