Question for running fast at age 47?

sc42 wrote: I find that nothing but intervals gets me to the point where 5 minute pace doesn't feel brutal right from the get-go. Tempo runs are important for me, but tempos alone do not get me ready mentally for the hammering, and do not get me ready to run relaxed at high pace.

Haha too true... I did my first set of 400s since last fall this past Tuesday. I only ran them at 5k pace, but it felt hard right from the get go, and didn't get any easier.

I'm supposed to run more 400s tomorrow (fewer - 8-10 instead of 15) at close to mile pace (on longer rest - 400j instead of 200). I'm a little bit afraid of how that pace's going to feel, since I haven't run it since maybe last summer. I expect a little discomfort. :-)

Ah, but the gains you see from session to session are always so awesome at the beginning of the season! You and I are on the same schedule, because I did my second track session 2 days ago: 8 x 1k.

sc42 wrote: Ah, but the gains you see from session to session are always so awesome at the beginning of the season!

Again, very true. I know that 5k pace should (and will, soon) feel much more comfortable, even for longer intervals, like 1200-1600. But now, even though I've raced at that pace (once so far), it still feels damn awkward in training.

I've actually done a fair bit of "track" work so far during my base work, but it has all been fairly "slow." The most demanding previous sessions had been 5 x 2000 @ ~ HM pace (3+ weeks back) and 8 x 1000 @ ~ HM pace (two weeks before that), but most of the rest of my work has been strong aerobic work (what some might call very easy tempo stuff - like 5k + 60-75s/mile). Well, there were a couple of other interval sessions earlier, but they were at very easy efforts (e.g. 8 x 800 w/200j @ midway between HM and M pace).

To change the subject for a moment, I think that we all agree that 76 year old Ed Whitlock runs all distances from the mile to the marathon fast. For a very interesting and informative article giving some of the reasons why google

The Prime of the Ancient Marathoner

That's a really good point, Orville. To tie this back to the friendly debate with 16x, from what I recall of Ed's training, I don't think he does a whole lot of "raw speed" type work, and yet he has outstanding range, with WRs at a fair variety of distances from at least 1500 to the marathon. Maybe not 800 or below, though, I don't think.

Yes, but Ed is not trying to run a sub 16 minute 5k. If the original poster, at age 47, was merely trying to run an 18:30 5k (which would be competitive in his age group at many local races), then he could get by with mostly aerobic stuff and a few tempo runs. But for a 16 flat, he needs to average 5:09 per mile and should be comfortable going out in 5:00. That means he should ideally be able to run a single mile in 4:45 or faster, which requires a high lactate threshold and some pretty serious top end speed. His training his to reflect the race - this is the "law of specificity" discussed in periodization training, and I have to agree with 16x that some faster speedwork is required to improve the leg turnover. It can be tough on the body, especially at age 40+, but he's the one who set the admirable goal of running a M47 world class time (90% on the 2006 WAVA table).

Pete wrote:

That's a really good point, Orville. To tie this back to the friendly debate with 16x, from what I recall of Ed's training, I don't think he does a whole lot of "raw speed" type work, and yet he has outstanding range, with WRs at a fair variety of distances from at least 1500 to the marathon. Maybe not 800 or below, though, I don't think.

nyloco,

I don't disagree that some faster work is necessary. My point of contention with 16x is over the relative proportion of faster running that might be required for different "types" (FT vs ST) runners to reach their own individual potential.

I don't think, however, you can discount Ed's training simply because his times are slower than the OP is looking for. Ed is running world class times across a wide range of events. Since you brought WAVA tables into the discussion, it is worthy to note that Ed's times are far superior to 90% age-graded - more like 97-100%. If Ed doesn't incorporate a lot of speed work every week of the year, than that is a point worthy of consideration in this discussion, I think.

yesterdays track workout(2nd one for the year)....what you think?

1 minute rest between sets

3 mile warm up

4 x 70 sprints

5 x 800 2:52, 2:44, 2:44, 2:45, and 2:38

5 x 400 80, 75, 78, 78, and 76

2 1/2 mile warm down....felt good

felt really good the first four sets but was hurting a little the last set.....nothing was all out...about 85 percent.

A little more about my training

1. I have never done Threshold training(not sure where to start or how fast)?...most of my runs are just easy (some would say junk miles 8:20 to 9:30) miles done on semi-hilly single-track mtn bike trails. I rarely do any speed work but have started adding track workouts on wednesday (2 so far).

2. my typical week of training the first 4 months of the year(ave around 85 miles a week)

monday. 6 to 8 miles w/traiing group (pace 8:30)

Tuesay 10 to 12 very easy trail run (pace 8:50)

wednes: Track workouts(group-just started program)...but use to run 12 to 15 very easy on trails (9 plus)

thurs 10 to 12 very easy trail run

Friday double: morning 6 easy trail....evening 10 easy trail

Saturday double: 10 to 16 morning (group run 8:30 to 7:30 pace which is fast for me to train...or seems so) and 8 to 12 evening trail by myself very easy

Sunday 6 to 12 miles depending on how I felt

usually I rest every 10 to 12 days depending if my body thinks I need it.

for now I think I will cut my milage back and increase my pace about 30 sec's a mile and see how that goes...plus add the track workouts on wednesday for the next 8 to 10 weeks then back off a little

ps..if I was to add a Threshold run I am not sure where to add it to my schedule?...any thoughts?

5k pr 17:14 two weeks ago and 17:19 week before that

thanks

Doesn't Ed race weekly, or close to it? There is no better VO2 workout or speed training (finishing kick)better than that.

MasterRacing,

You're going to get a lot of varying answers to your training question. I will only answer in general terms.

I believe you can handle a larger quantity of mileage closer to your 5K pace than you're currently doing. Right now, it looks like you're in the 4% range (3.5 miles/85 miles for the week). You can easily double that. According to the schedule I read, it looked like the Wed track work was on a fixed day as was the Sat group. So, if it were me, I'd add something different on Monday. Most likely, I'd add:

W/U - strides (8 X 70 or whatever you like - 4 isn't enough)

6 miles at 6:00 pace

Cool down

However, I am a bit biased toward steady work because it works well for me.

That would get you near 10 miles of up-tempo work. Might want to start with 4 miles at 6:00 pace and work toward 6. Either way, the total up-tempo stuff should be closer to 10% with your level of mileage. 85 is on the high end for Master's guys. If you can tolerate it, keep it up.

BTW - 15 seconds is a lot to vary in an 800 interval. You may want to check the split every 200 to keep yourself closer to 5K pace throughout (2:45 looks to be a good target to me).

Lastly, my advice was free. You get what you pay for:)

thanks for so much..."time is never free"

Mondays might work out good for me even though it is a fixed run to....but I usually like to chat with the 8:30 guys...but we have a couple faster guys who usually run around 6:30 pace or so....I think it might be time to leave my bubbies for a couple of months just see if the faster tempo stuffs helps....thanks again

ps...I have a 8k XC this saturday...goal 29 or better....some hills, river crossing, and mostly tall grass...I love this stuff!

On the question of speed, I am going to do 10x200 @400 pace in about 2 weeks time. I expecet to reach my peak about one month after this session, and hold onto that peak for several more months. This pace will help me at every distance up to 10k

When it comes to coaching advice on this website, I have to say that I am a Renato Canova fan. His methodology is that you add things to your training, rather than leaving things out, so you add speed, whilst maintaining endurance. It's all good.

For me to do every pace from very slow recovery to 18 miles at marathon pace all the way up through every type of pace work to pure sprinting - all of this cannot be achieved in one week, but it can be achieved in one month.

The speed comes gradually, regardless of how old or young we are. To get real pace, you have to believe that you can do it, which most people don't, they don't have the patience or the confidence to build the speed slowly.

My ambitions seem ridiculous to others, but I know what is achieveable, they don't.

I am glad that you believe in yourself, this board needs more positive thinkers like you.

thanks wellnow!

Here is a Quote I enjoy: "the honest truth is, you can't go faster until you lie to yourself and say, "I can," at which point, you do"!

funny thing is....."IF" I break 16 flat I will want to break 15!

but first I have break 17!...funny thing is I am always trying to "con" myself in many different ways in believing that I can do it!....so in my mind that is my way of justifying the goal is attainable!...but we will see....time will tell!

Its All Good!

I am sure you can run under 16. If you don't do it this year, maybe next year or the year after.

Just because we are getting older, doesn't mean we can't get fitter. You just have to make sure that the fitness gains outweigh the ageing process.

all sorts of fun stuff going on here!

Pete, I do think that time will show us some interesting stuff as far as anaerobic work and age. I think it will take a lot of folks moving into the Ed Whitlock bracket before we know if a 80 year old person might possibly be capable of a 2:00 800 and a 4:30 mile if they stuck with their anaerobic work. I don't think we know enough about those age groups because people tend to get older and abandon speed work.

I think for the average person over 45 and maybe not so average, that running a sub 16 for 5k is going to require some of the specific work that nyloco mentions, it is going to require some leg turnover, and some re-education of those type II fibers.

Remember this: if you haven't been tested, you don't really know what type fibers you have - sometimes I think most of us are just better at what we like, which isn't very scientific, but heck, do what you love - love what you do.

16x

MasterRacing wrote:

yesterdays track workout(2nd one for the year)....what you think?

1 minute rest between sets

3 mile warm up

4 x 70 sprints

5 x 800 2:52, 2:44, 2:44, 2:45, and 2:38

5 x 400 80, 75, 78, 78, and 76

2 1/2 mile warm down....felt good

felt really good the first four sets but was hurting a little the last set.....nothing was all out...about 85 percent.

I think you're on the right track. Based on your other posts, your mileage is already quite high, so you probably have most to gain by doing more intense workouts of the type you described. I bet that you will see some obvious gains both in how fast you race and how much easier it feels.

That said, only your last 400 was as fast as your goal race pace. As the saying goes, there are no miracles on Saturday mornings, so you must train as you plan to race. I'd suggest that you consider adjusting the length and/or total volume of intervals and the duration of the rests so that you can hit 75-77 pace reliably. Once running consistent 76s, then perhaps shorten the rests, and build the volume back up to about 4M as you make gains. A good rule of thumb is to run workouts at a given volume/pace for 2-3 weeks before adjusting, and then adjust either pace or volume but not both at one time. That is, be a little cautious about trying a big leap in both volume and intensity.

Eat the elephant one bite at a time and voila, once the rests are down to zero, you've got your 16:00.

Do you find that taking a day completely off running is better than taking an easy day of 3 - 5 miles?

mpdx wrote:

Do you find that taking a day completely off running is better than taking an easy day of 3 - 5 miles?

for me yes. total day off every 10 days to 2 weeks.