Including NBA All-Rookie SECOND team but excluding most missed shots in NBA history? ok.
Let's compare Kobe and Dwyane Wade.
FG%:
A: 49%, B:46%
Win Shares per 48 minutes:
A: .175, B: .170
Player Efficiency:
A: 24.5, B: 22.9
I'll let you decide who is player A and who is player B.
nah fam wrote:
5× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009, 2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
18× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2016)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006, 2007)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
Naismith Prep Player of the Year (1996)
ok
One MVP award.
One.
That pretty much sums it up. And that MVP award was basically given out of pity when it became clear he would never even be the best player in the league and his career was more than half over. Not the best for even ONE year.
One.
Lebron, for good measure:
FG%: 50%
WS/48: .239
PER: 27.6
So don't give me this shit about waiting a few more years on Lebron. He's already played more seasons than Bird.
agbainbpirab wrote:
nah fam wrote:5× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009, 2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
18× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2016)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006, 2007)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
Naismith Prep Player of the Year (1996)
ok
One MVP award.
One.
That pretty much sums it up. And that MVP award was basically given out of pity when it became clear he would never even be the best player in the league and his career was more than half over. Not the best for even ONE year.
One.
Extrapolating on that, Kobe never finished higher than 4th in win shares. Lebron finished 1st or 2nd for 9 consecutive seasons.
By comparison, Chris Paul has been 1st or 2nd 4 times, which is why he is a better player than Kobe will ever be.
nah, nah fam wrote:
Lebron, for good measure:
FG%: 50%
WS/48: .239
PER: 27.6
So don't give me this shit about waiting a few more years on Lebron. He's already played more seasons than Bird.
Agreed. Lebron is already one of the all-time best. And he is light-years better than Kobe.
agbainbpirab wrote:
nah, nah fam wrote:Lebron, for good measure:
FG%: 50%
WS/48: .239
PER: 27.6
So don't give me this shit about waiting a few more years on Lebron. He's already played more seasons than Bird.
Agreed. Lebron is already one of the all-time best. And he is light-years better than Kobe.
Bird never gave up in games and never choked. Never saw Kobe give up either. Lebron? You wouldn't want him next to you in the foxhole during a brutal, tooth and nails battle.
Lots of Ducks wrote:
Bird never gave up in games and never choked. Never saw Kobe give up either. Lebron? You wouldn't want him next to you in the foxhole during a brutal, tooth and nails battle.
What a bogus post
Lebron has taken several mediocre NBA teams to the finals. In past years his supporting cast had no-name players like boobie gibson, larry hughes etc ...And a no-name coach called Mike Brown. And Lebron carried them on his shoulders to the finals several times.
In 2015, again he had a mediocre team because Kyrie and Kevin Love were injured. Yet again he took them to the finals.
How can you call a person who has made to the NBA finals 7 times a quitter?
Was worried wrote:
Lots of Ducks wrote:Bird never gave up in games and never choked. Never saw Kobe give up either. Lebron? You wouldn't want him next to you in the foxhole during a brutal, tooth and nails battle.
What a bogus post
Lebron has taken several mediocre NBA teams to the finals. In past years his supporting cast had no-name players like boobie gibson, larry hughes etc ...And a no-name coach called Mike Brown. And Lebron carried them on his shoulders to the finals several times.
In 2015, again he had a mediocre team because Kyrie and Kevin Love were injured. Yet again he took them to the finals.
How can you call a person who has made to the NBA finals 7 times a quitter?
Fact: Lebron has been in the finals 7 times. 4 times were with the Miami super team. 2 times were with the Cleveland super team. That leaves 1 (ONE) time with a supporting cast of no-name players, etc.
Now, in what universe does ONE equate to "years" (plural) or "several times"?
Fat Checker wrote:
2 times were with the Cleveland super team.
OMG please stop, I am going to die from laughing too hard!!!!!!!
Dennis T Reynolds wrote:
Fat Checker wrote:2 times were with the Cleveland super team.
OMG please stop, I am going to die from laughing too hard!!!!!!!
Are you claiming that Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love are no names? Are you really that stupid?
Kobe Bryant is one of the most gifted players of all-time. He's on my 2000-2009 All-Decade Team. But boy was his selfishness frustrating. He has 5 rings, but IMO, he screwed up the chance to have at least a couple more. It's a shame he wasn't even just a little bit more dedicated to team accomplishments. I don't know what % of the Shaq breakup was his fault, but I know what % should have been: none. You find a way to make it work. He played on some bad teams, but I think a greater player does a better job of getting more wins even on those teams. And his final season was just a crap show used by the Lakers to allow him to be as selfish as an adult could be. He led the Lakers in FGA and his FG% was either the worst on the team or awfully close. Extremely talented? Yes. A ton of personal accomplishments? Yes. Fatal flaws that keep me from putting him on the A list? Yes to that too.
LeBron is another super talent with some peculiar blemishes. He's undoubtedly primed to be on my 2010-2019 All-Decade Team once the decade closes. He's different from Kobe in that LeBron didn't play for lousy teams. Of course, LeBron carpet bagged around the league and cherry picked his teammates. The average record of the teams LeBron joined (the year before LeBron got there and the year after he left) was 31-51. The average record on all those teams' 1st year with LeBron was 52-30. Very impressive, though not as impressive had he stayed with 1 team. Greater players, IMO, stay put. They don't bounce around. LeBron has a rep for being unselfish, though I think this is a false narrative. LeBron is a different kind of selfish than Kobe, but selfish nonetheless. You have to play whatever way LeBron wants you to. You don't get to play to your strengths as a LeBron teammate, rather you do his bidding. Which, often is running to a corner to receive a kickout pass for a 3. LeBron likes to shoot 24 feet from the basket or clear out for a drive and shoot or a drive and dish. He's either the center of every possession or he's taking the possession off. It's all on his terms. And as talented as he is, it's tough to get around the constant traveling that's not called on him. I don't know how great he'd be offensively if they called traveling appropriately. He's the best in the game as they officiate it now. I just don't know what would happen if he couldn't dribble the ball like it was Australian Rules Football.
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A-well-a
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A-well-a, bird
Surfin' bird
Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb, aaah
Pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa
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Papa-ooma-mow-mow
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Ooma-mow-mow, papa-ooma-mow-mow
Papa-ooma-mow-mow, ooma-mow-mow
Well, don't you know about the bird
Well, everybody knows that the bird is the word
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So, yeah. Bird's the best player of all time.
I would so rather have Duncan on my team than Kobe. One of my lasting memories from the 2010 NBA Finals was Phil Jackson sitting Kobe down in Game #7 because it was the only way to get the rest of the team involved. The Lakers, despite getting a big boost from Perkins being out for Boston, were going DOWN. And they were going down because Kobe Bryant was playing hero ball. It wasn't that Kobe wasn't giving effort, he was. He was really busting it on the boards. But he was killing the Lakers. HE was shutting down Fisher and Gasol and Artest. This is where it's really underscored how, despite his productivity and raw numbers, he can fail his team. And he was. With Kobe riding the pine, the other Lakers clawed their way back. If you were watching that game and rooting for the Lakers, you were happy when Gasol took a shot and you were cringing when Kobe did and Kobe wouldn't... stop... shooting. They won Game #7 despite him. Kobe had to be forced to play team basketball. Duncan never failed to play team ball. Give me Duncan over Kobe all day every day.
Greatest TEAM and greatest PLAYERS at each position
TEAM
Magic (team player, all round ability, tall)
MJ (greatest ever, great D)
Larry (inside/outside threat, brings grit/intangibles)
Timmy (great D, team player, smart)
Hakeem the Dream (look at his stats in prime vs greatest center generation, best defensive center in modern era, steals, blocks)
PLAYERS
Magic
MJ
Lebron
Timmy
Wilt
No.
seeeeer wrote:
Greatest TEAM and greatest PLAYERS at each position
TEAM
Magic (team player, all round ability, tall)
MJ (greatest ever, great D)
Larry (inside/outside threat, brings grit/intangibles)
Timmy (great D, team player, smart)
Hakeem the Dream (look at his stats in prime vs greatest center generation, best defensive center in modern era, steals, blocks)
PLAYERS
Magic
MJ
Lebron
Timmy
Wilt
This is a real interesting way of looking at it. I think the team you put together could actually play together. Wilt also showed he could play a role later in his career and be part of a championship team. He deferred to West and Goodrich from a scoring standpoint and focused on defense and rebounding. His team play in his later years prompted Russell to say that Chamberlain "played my game better than me". The 1 player on your "players" list who I don't see seamlessly making the jump to the "TEAM" you assembled is LeBron. Bird fit in with his teammates/ adjusted his game to accommodate theirs'. When his C and PF were 6'8", he played closer to the basket. When Parish and McHale were on the floor, he moved outside. He adjusted to the other players. He did not insist on playing a certain way and make his teammates have to try to fit in with him. That's why Bird is a better fit for the team, IMO, than LeBron is. Nice post.
Sullivan wrote:
Kobe had to be forced to play team basketball.
Kobe chose winning less as long as he could be the #1 star over winning more and sharing the spotlight. That's a loser in my book.
Remember his play in the Finals against the Pistons? The only person who could stop Shaq was Kobe.
anyway wrote:
Magic and Bird may have won titles earlier in their career, and to that I say "So What?" You are right, the Bulls did stink before Jordan arrive. Did the Lakers or Celtics stink beofre Magic or Bird arrived? The answer is no. Does building a team simply mean drafting the best player? It would be ridiculous to suggest so. We tend to focus solely on team championships in determining who is the greatest. However, the reality is they are TEAM TITLES. Jordan isn't a basketball God, he was/is the greatest player ever to play the game. The Celtics and Lakers have won titles BEFORE & AFTER Magic and Bird retired. What have the Bulls ever done without Michael Jordan on the team.
The Celtics didn't stink before Bird arrived? They were 29-53!! Lol. And they were 32-50 the year before that. See, this is the problem with these kinds of discussions. People don't know what the bleeping truth is. They latch onto some alternative fact that suits their agenda and they just run with it. The Celtics were 61-101 the 2 years prior to acquiring Bird. Then they won 61 games the very 1st year with Bird as the only new starter.
Also, I can offer my own irrelevant fact to match your's about the Lakers and Celtics winning titles before and after Magic &. Bird-----the Bullets won before Jordan got to Washington but NOT with Jordan.
anyway wrote:
To the guy that mentioned the Celtics were not good the year before Bird came, point taken. But the Celtics didn't just add Bird. They acquired Cedric Maxwell the year before and picked up gerald Henderson and M.L. Carr the same year as Bird. They were key contributors in 79-80.
Maxwell was also on the 1977-78 team that was 32-50 and the 1978-79 team that was 29-53. So I don't think bringing him up as a reason the Celtics had the massive turnaround in 1979-80 is a strong move. Gerald Henderson was a nice bench player. He got his 6 points and 2 assists in his 14 minutes per night. I'm pretty sure Jordan had somebody like that in year 1 on his bench as well. And ML Carr waved a damned good towel. He was a positive part of the team off the bench. But let's not get crazy, we should probably pump the brakes on ML Carr a bit. Gotta give you points for creativity, though. "Don't forget the Celtics added ML Carr!!" Good stuff.
nbafanatic wrote:
Nope. Thier entire respective careers will suffice. It is a lot easier to challenge for titles in your first yearts when you have other future hall of famers by your side. Jordan had no noe else initially. That's why I brought game 2 of the playoffs Jordan's 2nd year multiple times. He put up 63 points on a great defensive team. he had no other options.
As for Jordan as an individual, you are inept and a poor judge of talent if you honestly believe Jordan didn't help his teammates. I already mentioned how Jordan did a lot of one-on-one work with Pippen which Pippen and the Bulls' coaching staff credit with Pippen's growth as a player. Jordan was superior on offense and defense to Larry Bird, and the numbers and accolades prove as much.
You are trying to give Bird credit for everything they did in the 80s and you are wrong to do so. McHale and Parrish didn't need Bird to be great players. He didn't make them better, they were just that good. The Celtics would have won more championships if they had Jordan instead of Bird. And Jordan didn't just score. He maintained good numbers in assists, rebounds and steals his entire career. Those numbers are higher in playoff games. A Jordan lead team with EQUAL support to a Bird lead team beats Bird EVERY time. Jordan can do more by himself than Bird and his best teammate can do collectively.
Regarding the last sentence: 1st Round Eastern Conference Playoffs Game 2 results suggest "not on Jordan's best day" is that true.
As to McHale and Parish: they were very skilled. They still got their numbers without Larry in there (though they were much more efficient with him). They just didn't WIN without Larry. Boston was 57-25 with Bird in 1987-88. They same guys without him were 22-24 before making trades in 1988-89. With Parish and McHale. In 1990-91, Boston with Bird was 29-5 to start the year. Then Bird's back went out and he missed 22 straight games. The Celtics without Bird (but with Parish and McHale) went 10-12. Bird, however, won without McHale and Parish.