Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

Wilt Chamberlain holds or shares 72 NBA records. Among Wilt's most astonishing achievements was the only double triple-double in NBA history: 22 points 25 rebounds and 21 assists on February 2, 1968 vs. Detroit.

Wilt was also the greatest shot blocker the game of basketball has ever known. Blocked shot statistics were not originated until 1974, ironically just a single year after Chamberlain retired. Newspaper accounts of games talk about Chamberlain blocking ten to twelve shots per game. Teammate Matt Guokas swears that Will averaged about eight blocks per game.

Wilt is the only basketball player in the Hall of Fame to never foul out in a single game--regular season or postseason. A remarkable achievement for any player, the achievement is even more remarkable, considering that opposing teams would foul Wilt over and over again—and frequently get away with it.

Wilt even led the league in a statistic that would not be invented for the next thirty years: player efficiency rating. Created by ESPN Insider writer John Hollinger, player efficiency rating measures a player's overall success, boiling every statistic into one number. Wilt led the league in PEF eight separate times and holds three of the top four single-season marks, including the top two.

Wilt played against a very large number of great and dominant centers in his 14 year career, here is the list:

Bill Russell

Kareem Abdul Jabbar

Willis Reed

Wes Unseld

Elvin Hayes

Dolph Schayes

Nate Thurmond

Bob Lanier

Any one of the above centers in their prime would at WORST be the second best center in today's NBA.

Wilt sacrificed his scoring in an effort to help his team by passing more and playing dominant defense.

When Wilt was solely a scorer he averaged 39 points per game over 7 years. This does not even get into Wilt's leading the league in Field Goal Percentage (single game & single season record holder), Rebounding (the all time leading rebounder for game, season and career), Assists (the only center ever to do so, and Wilt's career high(8.6apg) is more than Jordan's(8.0) despite Wilt playing center & having to play under tougher rules governing assists) and Minutes (Wilt averaged over 45min/game for his career despite no chartered jets and a more tightly packed schedule): all feats Jordan has never accomplished.

Wilt is the greatest ever.

Everything I've said today can be quickly copied or is practically common sense strategy that is long term. And long term business plans are garbage because startups constantly change in their early days. What is he stealing? A guess. I haven't said what I don't want anyone to know.

Dartsandfarts wrote:

Everything I've said today can be quickly copied or is practically common sense strategy that is long term. And long term business plans are garbage because startups constantly change in their early days. What is he stealing? A guess. I haven't said what I don't want anyone to know.

Yes, common sense strategy that apparently is lost in today's

NBA. Have you been watching the playoffs? James Harden and the Rockets are a good example of a team that lost because of poorly executed forced one on one play and missed three pointers. Why take a crappy three pointer on a three on one fast break? Also, when you have a three on one opportunity, why not pass to get a better lay up opportunity as opposed to forcing the dribble to the basket that gets picked and creates a turnover instead of an easy score.

Harden had 13 turnovers in the last game, mostly from stolen cross over dribbling by forced one on one play by Harden and bad passing. He is symbolic of the singular stud athlete who can do great things except play team ball at the right times, IE high basketball IQ. That is what make stud athletes great and mediocre players valuable bench players. It is also what defines the greats like Larry Bird. He was part of a front court with high basketball IQ. Bird, McCale and Parish were the best front court to play the game and were the masters of pick and roll half court basketball.

kneedeep wrote:

Along with pick and roll half court basket ball. Teams today are not built with strong high Basketball IQ front courts with good pick and roll, and passing skills. Part of it is the apparent lack of quality bigs with good court awareness and passing skills. It seems the league is dominated by slashing shooting guards and small forwards who would rather drive to the basket and kick the ball outside for three's as opposed to roll defenses around with smart passing to create open lanes and higher percentage inside scoring. It's all one on one drives, dunks and three pointers. When is the last time we saw sky hooks used? Maybe I am too nostalgic for the old days.

That's a really weird question. The only player to regularly use the sky hook was Kareem. So I guess that the answer is the last game that Kareem played. But it's just a bizarre question since there was never a time when the sky hook was a widely used weapon.

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

6 for 6 NBA titles. It's just so hard to argue with that. Especially when he was carrying SO much of the weight for his teams each and every time.

Just a couple thoughts on this:

I've always been intrigued by the adulation Jordan gets for "being perfect" in the Finals. I get the adulation for being the top guy on 6 championship teams----but when people give him extra credit never losing in the Finals. Wasn't Jordan trying to win every year? What if he won 6 titles AND made an additional 3 Finals but lost? Is that worse than winning 6 titles AND losing in the 1st Round 3 times? He did play for 15 seasons. Do we just block out what occurred during the other 9 seasons? Or is that part of his legacy as well?

Also, how much of the weight DID he carry for his championship teams? The most of anyone on those teams, I'm sure. But didn't the Bulls win 55 games without Jordan in between the 3-peats? Is his load being overrated on those championship teams relative to other top dogs on other championship teams?

Just thinking out loud.

I think Jordan was the greatest player for the decade of the 90s. I don't know if I'd insist on anything beyond that. He played in the 80s and was a spectacular individual talent from 1984-85 through 1988-89. But 4+ seasons in the 80s saw his teams win about 20 games over .500, total. And he's got a 14-23 record in 5 playoff seasons in the 80s. Including 13-14 with Scottie Pippen. If my math is off, let me know. Anyway, just trying to look at the entirety of Jordan's career.

Wonderfully informative post, assuming all the info is correct (I have no reason to believe otherwise).

To me, Wilt is a bit of a puzzle. He is a fascinating figure in sports lore. He was the most physically dominant player in the history of the NBA. So why the heck is he not a runaway consensus GOAT? I know he has a ton of supporters who swear by him and I admit there are certain things about his career that just don't seem possible----but really happened.

I shudder to think of the number of blocked shots he had. Same goes for Russell. A shame there isn't an official stat for him.

One thing I noticed about him is that he seems to have 2 careers. One before the lane was expanded to 16 feet and one after.

Complicating things is that Wilt was the reason they expanded the lane. He was a freak with a 12-foot lane. And he was a great player with a 16-foot lane, but not quite the same player. How much does this affect how we should think of him? I guess it's a matter of opinion.

I have to reserve criticism of him as I did not see him play live (but how many of us did see him live?). There are other things that cloud my opinion of him like how could he ever play on a team that finished 31-49 and miss the playoffs while being dead last in scoring defense or how did he not destroy Willis Reed who could barely walk in that Game #7? Especially after the huge Game #6 Wilt had.

I love the whole GOAT discussion because nobody's perfect and it's interesting throwing around all of these amazing players' strong suits and weak spots.

kneedeep wrote:

Solomon Grundy wrote:

(1) The march of the great big men over the years has been halted because of rules designed specifically against them.

(2) A great big man today would blow the league up. Olajuwon or Jabbar would own the league. IMO.

It seems that (1) and (2) are somewhat mutually contradictory.

Related question - if Olajuwon or Jabbar would own the league today why do we not see 20 year old Olajuwons or Jabbars? Where did such big man talents go?

I think playing with your back to the basket on the block is a lost art.[/quote]

Along with pick and roll half court basket ball. Teams today are not built with strong high Basketball IQ front courts with good pick and roll, and passing skills. Part of it is the apparent lack of quality bigs with good court awareness and passing skills. It seems the league is dominated by slashing shooting guards and small forwards who would rather drive to the basket and kick the ball outside for three's as opposed to roll defenses around with smart passing to create open lanes and higher percentage inside scoring. It's all one on one drives, dunks and three pointers. When is the last time we saw sky hooks used? Maybe I am too nostalgic for the old days.[/quote]

Good input, bro.

A v ery good posy except Dolph Schayes does not belong on that list

Why do you point to the presence of a couple good white players to prove that the NBA isn't better now? On that ground, there are far fewer white players in the league today and many of them are foreigners. Kevin Love is a highly skilled big man, a poor man's Larry Bird, not the passer but a very good shooter, not at Bird's level, a better rebounder, not the help defender or winner, obviously. The Celtics with Parrish and Bird, in the latter's rookie year, turned around from something like 20 victories to 60.

True Love is a better rebounder but let's not forget that Bird was a small forward.

True, Kareem was the master of the sky hook, which is just a jump hook. Because Kareem was so tall and could jump his jump hook became the sky hook. The jump hook is commonly used around the basket, however, it isn't used as much anymore because there are not too many players that play traditional post up basketball. So, the jump hook is rarely used and why I am nostalgic for the old days. But that shot is still a valid weapon around the basket.

Jordan is the master of the jumping kick. Everyone roots for Air Jordan offensively fouling his way to the hoop with extreme forward momentum, but imagine if Wilt tried playing like that. Basketball's favorable treatment of superstars makes it difficult to tell who is really the best, similar to how Floyd can bully his way to being an undefeated boxer.Jordan was a great player, don't get me wrong, but I think he got away with a lot more (traveling, offensive fouls), had a lot more support from his teammates than people realize. The bulls had an amazing team when he played in Chicago.

Flagpole wrote:

NBAFan wrote:

I know the stats don't tell the full story, but Larry Legend HAS to be in the talk for greatest NBA player of all time. He was a leader, a great competitor and the main part of one of the sports' greatest dynasties.

He could shoot, he could drive to the rim, he could dribble, he could pass and he could rebound and played excellent defense. He was truly a complete player, not a single phase of his game was subpar.

No. Michael Jordan is still the gold standard. Yes Bird did some things better than Jordan, but overall, Jordan is the best ever.

Kevin Love's game is not a poor man's version of Larry Bird's. Not at all.

jjjjj wrote:

Why do you point to the presence of a couple good white players to prove that the NBA isn't better now? On that ground, there are far fewer white players in the league today and many of them are foreigners. Kevin Love is a highly skilled big man, a poor man's Larry Bird, not the passer but a very good shooter, not at Bird's level, a better rebounder, not the help defender or winner, obviously. The Celtics with Parrish and Bird, in the latter's rookie year, turned around from something like 20 victories to 60.

Solomon Grundy wrote:

Kevin Love's game is not a poor man's version of Larry Bird's. Not at all.

jjjjj wrote:

Why do you point to the presence of a couple good white players to prove that the NBA isn't better now? On that ground, there are far fewer white players in the league today and many of them are foreigners. Kevin Love is a highly skilled big man, a poor man's Larry Bird, not the passer but a very good shooter, not at Bird's level, a better rebounder, not the help defender or winner, obviously. The Celtics with Parrish and Bird, in the latter's rookie year, turned around from something like 20 victories to 60.

Also, Bird did not have Parish on his rookie year team. Bird was they only new starter for the Celtics in 1979-80... 1 year removed from finishing 29-53.

With Bird added, the Celtics finished 61-21 before the trade that brought Parish and McHale to Boston.

Shit! The NBA is so void of athletes today that Danny Carry-Tools drummer-an NBA wannabe, would make the All Star team today. Best drummer ever, but given the lack of "Birdness" in this iteration of the NBA, Carry would probably

be a candidate for the NBA Hall of Fame. Enjoy your next dribble.

Solomon Grundy wrote:

One thing I noticed about him is that he seems to have 2 careers. One before the lane was expanded to 16 feet and one after.

I'd like to amend the above.

Upon further inspection, Wilt looked like he had 3 careers.

1) his 1st 5 years when the lane was 12-feet wide.

2) his 2nd 5 years when the lane was 16-feet but before he was that old

3) his last 4 years when his role was more of a supporting role as an older player

In years 1960-64 at ages 24-27 with a 12-foot lane, Wilt averaged 41.7ppg, 25.3rpg, 3.0apg & shot .506 fg%/ .568 ft%

In years 1965-1969 at ages 28-32 with a 16-foot lane, Wilt averaged 27.3ppg, 23.3rpg, 6.0apg & shot .569 fg% / .449 ft%

In years 1970-1973 at ages 33-36 with a 16-foot lane, Wilt averaged 16.7ppg, 18.7rpg, 4.2apg & shot .613 fg% / .489 ft%

Overall with a 16-foot lane, at ages 28-36, from 1965-1973, Wilt averaged 23.1ppg, 21.5rpg, 5.3apg & shot .581 fg%/ .461 ft%

Even if you cut out his seasons when he was ages 32-36------his numbers with a 16-foot lane do not quite match the legend that produced different stats on a 12-foot lane. Which part of his career best represents who he was? I'd say his 2nd five years is probably the fairest sample in that he was playing with a modern lane-width while still being a mostly prime age.

I must admit that even if you adjust his somewhat inflated rebound totals to a more modern rebound %----they're still amazing at the advanced age of 33-36. And his fg% is elite.

Wilt could have kept scoring a lot more for a lot more years but he chose to start emphasizing other things...like FG pct., which was 72 percent one year, and assists, for which he reached the highest level ever by a center

If Wilt played in the era of Nike multi-million dollar shoe contracts, 24 hour sports networks, endorsements and 100% televised games- NBA fans would not automatically say that Jordan was the greatest of all time.

The night Chamberlain scored 100 points, that game was not televised; local fans had two choices: attend the game or listen to the radio play by play.

The rules changed because of his pure dominance. No other player on the list can lay claim to that. Who was the best basketball player of all time? It is Wilt - only Wilt. Nothing more needs to be said. Young people don't know their history.

Bird schools Jordan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoXZ1f00Mc