Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

Bird was great by white standards but like most whites was a liability on defense.

MagicJ wrote:

No, but Barack Obama is the Greatest US President Of All Time.

If Obama was white, he'd be just another crappy president.

Me3 wrote:

Charles Barkley once said : "if Larry Bird were black, he's be talked about as an average player.."

I don't think Barkley ever said that. If he did, then he has multiple personalities. Barkley thought Larry Bird was GREAT. Here's a quote he made in 2010:

“I’m just mad because I had to play against Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Michael Jordan and guys like that instead of some of these stiffs that are playing in the NBA today. We used to have real basketball back in the 80s and 90s. We would’ve beat these teams like drums.”

You don't lump Bird in with Magic and Jordan if you think he's an overrated player based on skin color.

Isiah Thomas and Dennis Rodman DID make comments akin to Bird beIng 'just another good guy if he was black' after a game where Bird stole a pivitol game from the Pistons in the 1987 ECF. And Bird had to sit with Isiah in a press conference to help Isiah with the media and save that idiot's bacon after that stupid comment.

As for other racist, troll comments about Bird here: he wasn't a defensive stopper. But he was a player who played solid enough on defense to earn multiple All NBA Defensive 2nd Teams as well as a player who made spectacular, clutch defensive plays and frankly played passing lanes and team defense as well as anyone.

Here Is The Way It Is wrote:

MeHereYouWhere?! wrote:

...

Heck, Carmelo Anthony's career averages (so far) are 25.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg and 3.1 assists and makes $23.4 million and has never had his team anywhere close to the finals or a championship.

Also, Melo will NEVER win a championship. Doesn't have what it takes to lead a team to a title. Can't play second fiddle to someone who does.

A team built around Carmelo cannot win a championship. Your cornerstone can't be someone who gives no effort on defense. I question his ability to play in a system efficiently, defer at appropriate moments to a peer or facilitate lesser teamates' games. He's a volume shot taker who needs for everything to slow down as he gets his. And in order for him to get his, others have to give up theirs'.

He is not the type of player who leads teams to NBA championships.

Solomon Grundy wrote:

Here Is The Way It Is wrote:

Also, Melo will NEVER win a championship. Doesn't have what it takes to lead a team to a title. Can't play second fiddle to someone who does.

A team built around Carmelo cannot win a championship. Your cornerstone can't be someone who gives no effort on defense. I question his ability to play in a system efficiently, defer at appropriate moments to a peer or facilitate lesser teamates' games. He's a volume shot taker who needs for everything to slow down as he gets his. And in order for him to get his, others have to give up theirs'.

He is not the type of player who leads teams to NBA championships.

Yup

Solomon Grundy wrote:

Isiah Thomas and Dennis Rodman DID make comments akin to Bird beIng 'just another good guy if he was black' after a game where Bird stole a pivitol game from the Pistons in the 1987 ECF. And Bird had to sit with Isiah in a press conference to help Isiah with the media and save that idiot's bacon after that stupid comment.

.

I remember that well. In my opinion, Rodman said it seriously (as much as he says anything "seriously"), and when asked about it, Isiah, said (again, IMHO), *sarcastically*, echoing what Rodman said, "yeah, sure, Larry Bird is only considered great because he is white" and all the reporters laughed. So I really don't think Isiah deserved crap for that. He wasn't being serious and was sarcastically echoing Rodman's statement when asked if he agreed. This backs up my memory-

I heard that interview *at the time*, and it was CLEAR to me he was kidding. He said it that way, and the reporters did laugh. Anyway....

I don't think anyone can watch the below video and not say Jordan was the best. Sure, you can compile great highlights of anyone, but this just shows Jordan head and shoulders athletically above everyone, and as skilled as anyone, and more clutch than anyone in pressure situations. Really, take the time to watch it, and it seems impossible to me for one not say: that's the best player ever. And I think Larry Bird would agree ("God disguised as Michael Jordan", said WAAAY before Jordan had even reached his true peak)-

He's underrated because his career was shortened by injury, but you could make a case for him as best ever. In his prime he could rebound and score and create better than any perimeter player.

For best players each position ever I'd go

C- Olajuwon

PF- Duncan

SF- Bird

SG- Jordan

PG- Robertson

Olajuwon was just a more complete player than any other center. Only Jabbar was close to him as an all-around player

LeFlop James is annoying, but he's neck and neck with Bird. Right now Bird has a slight edge

Robertson was a far more talented player than Magic Johnson. Johnson is very overrated.

Duncan is a no brainer over Karl Malone. Malone never won a title and Duncan has won 5.

Bird isn't even the best player from the state of Indiana. Oscar Robertson is!

I remember the game and the post-game. My house was rooting for Detroit. I didn't like the Celtics, but that was the day I became a fan of Bird's. I liked how he handled the nonsense and totally killed the media's attempt to blow everything up.

I do disagree, though, that Isiah was simply joking. I don't buy that he was joking at all. I think he regrets he let that out, but I think he was extremely upset and as they say "hard times don't MAKE character, hard times REVEAL character.

I think over the years, Isiah has had some deep-seeded issues/ jealousy with Magic, Bird and Jordan and he revealed himself multiple times to be a sneaky, slick guy of dubious character over the years.

In those days, I pulled for Detroit against the Lakers, Celtics AND then the Bulls. But those comments by Rodman (whose list of issues is too long to list) and then Isiah really rubbed me the wrong way.

Later, the Pistons would refuse to shake hands with the Bulls after a playoff series and I just lost respect for the Pistons and Isiah in particular.

I wouldn't look at laughter by Isiah as evidence that he was joking. My experience has been that people's outward affect as they are delivering messages which they are dead serious about can be all over the map. Some people are solemn. Some people laugh nervously. You can see by his follow up 'story' that he WAS, INDEED harboring some resentment and that it DID have to do with race.

I regret that the best player on a team that I used to root for turned out to be a complete creep. But I was glad that Bird snuffed out the media's attempt to exploit a racially charged story.

I think Jordan's highlight reels are among the best. The optics on him are as close to perfect as my mind can imagine. When I think about how I'd like to LOOK playing basketball, it's pretty close to how he looks.

I think people have different ways of looking at a player and valuing him.

Do we value what a player eventually became?

Do we value what a player was at every moment of his career?

Does it matter how aesthetically pleasing he is?

Does it just matter what his results are?

Is it important that he's a great individual talent?

Does it matter more what his team does and how much he facilitated teammates ?

Do we excuse him as long as he gets numbers and scores a lot?

Do we excuse individual limitations if the team wins?

It's understandable to me if people arrive at different conclusions.

I am not so sure Larry Bird thinks he was a lesser player than anyone. I do not think his 'God disguised as Michael Jordan' comment meant that he truly thought a player in his 2nd year was the 'best ever'. Especially when he was in the middle of his own MVP 3-Peat. I think Bird was giving props to an amazing individual performance that day, albeit in a loss. Jordan scored 63 points that day in Double OT... He may have had high 40s/ low 50s after regulation. Elgin Baylor had 61 in regulation in the playoffs. Wilt scored 100 once. I think David Robinson had 71 once. Kobe had 81. What would Bird say about that? My observations have been that Bird has been incredibly complimentary to other players after great performances, but I never heard him say anyone was a better player than him. I remember a Gatorade? Commercial in the 90s? where everyone was singing 'if I could be like Mike', and Bird famously said at the end: 'I'm not singing'. Good stuff.

My disagreements with you are all with great respect. I enjoyed reading you and appreciate your recollections and view point.

Unlike you, I have hated Thomas and the Pissedons for a long time. Thomas was a good player, but not a good person at Indiana. When he joined Detroilet, it only confirmed that he was crap. Detroilet is where all crap goes.

Simoza wrote:

Unlike you, I have hated Thomas and the Pissedons for a long time. Thomas was a good player, but not a good person at Indiana. When he joined Detroilet, it only confirmed that he was crap. Detroilet is where all crap goes.

Ha ha!! I remember Thomas on the cover of SI after UI beat UNC for the Nat'l Championship in 1981. I really didn't know much about him as a person off the court. I wasn't a Pistons fan so much as by the time 1987 rolled around, I wanted someone to beat the Celtics and the Lakers. The Pistons were chippy and dirty and punks (except for a few guys, like Dumars), but I didn't care as I really just wanted the Celtics to get beat. Then came the horse bleep comments from that ignorant clown, Rodman followed up by Isiah's ill-fated words. The ugly side of Thomas that you knew about finally was revealed to me. I remember him being accused of orchestrating the All Star freeze out of Jordan (which subsequent evidence of his character has made me believe), I remember him not shaking the Bulls' hands in 1991 after Chicago finally got past them. I remember him being a punk with Karl Malone to the point where the Mailman committed so flagrant a foul to Isiah's face with his elbow that Isiah had 1/2 his face hanging off in a giant gash above his eye like he went through a windshield. Jordan didn't want him on the Dream Team. And nobody came to bat for Isiah. He conspired to freeze out Jordan. He fueled the racist crap with Bird. And when his buddy, Magic got HIV, he stopped bring a friend. He was doing a great job of alienating himself from everybody who was somebody. Then he had a scandalous run as a Knicks exec. The guy was just trash. Every subsequent episode with him fortified the suspicion that he wasn't someone you trusted as being decent, appropriate or honest.

Just curious... what did he do at Indiana that was so bad?

I don't understand why dominating centers are never in the "greatest ever" discussion. They may not be fancy or graceful or have same range of skills, but they dominate and win games.

The Centers wrote:

I don't understand why dominating centers are never in the "greatest ever" discussion. They may not be fancy or graceful or have same range of skills, but they dominate and win games.

Probably because people are ignorant. IMO, the great centers almost have their own pantheon. They shaped how the rules were changed. Rules had to be changed to slow them down. Alcindor made the NCAA ban dunking! If you want to see dominance, look at clips of Alcindor at UCLA before they banned dunking. He looks like he's playing on an 8-foot rim.

The lane used to be narrower. When Wilt averaged 50+ ppg, they had to widen it to it 's current size. Other players like Kurland affected goal tending rules.

Subsequent rule changes have tried NOT to diminish a player's influence, but rather to enhance it. They shortened the 3-pt line in the 90s briefly to make it easier. Look at Jordan's 3pt % with the shorter line. Then they moved it back to the old distance when they realized it was ruining the game.

Look at how traveling is called. They allow carrying the ball and turning the ball over. They allow an extra step. You can hop to the side before shooting passing or dribbling. All of this enhances shooting %.

They used to make rule changes to curb dominance.

Now they do it to enhance OFFENSE.

All of these pro sports leagues view themselves as entertainment entities more and more, and they are competing for your entertainment dollar and they will do anything to make their product more entertaining to the widest paying demographic possible.

Look at how Bob Cousy dribbles a basketball, then look at Iverson. Cousy is literally patting the top of the ball and looks stiff. But this is because that's how he had to do it. He wasn't allowed to hold the ball on his hip and dirigible the ball from the bottom and 'turn it over'. What Iverson lived on used to be illegal for Cousy.

LeBron's 3 steps (or more) and his hop steps and jump stops that he lives off of were not allowed years ago. I wonder what Dr, J could do with these liberal traveling rules.

It makes comparisons of greats across eras pure fantasy. The advantages almost always favor the modern player via cozy rules.

The march of the great big men over the years has been halted because of rules designed specifically against them.

A great big man today would blow the league up. Olajuwon or Jabbar would own the league. IMO.

The celtics were the second worst team in the league when Bird showed up and they had the best record in the league his rookie year, talk about an impact, still the biggest turnaround in nba history! Also Bird dominated Jordan over and over, Jordan would have 0 nba titles if he had come into the league 6 or 8 years earlier with Bird and Magic! Bird was 23 and 11 in the regular season against Jordan and 12 and 0 in the playoffs and that includes the year that Mchale went out in game 1 with a broken foot and Parish had a messed up ankle that required surgery in the offseason and Bird still swept Jordan and Pippen 4 to 0 ! The only games Jordan won were when Bird was was injured and had to lay on the sidelines because his back was so messed up and the games were still close! I am a fan of Jordan and Magic but a bigger fan of Bird because he was the best! Bird averaged 24.3 points, over 10 rebounds and almost seven assists, Jordan averaged 30 points, 4 rebounds, and less than 5 assists and both averaged almost two steals a game . Bird was a great team player who made his teammates better, Jordan was a great player but didn't make anyone else much better. Kareem should be in the discussion for the goat 24.5 points, 14 rebounds, 4.5 assists and he won a title with Milwaukee with no talent around him. He also averaged 32 points a game his first 6 or 7 years until teamed with magic, worthy, mcadoo, Wilkes, and all of those great players where shooting all the time would have been detrimental to the team! I still think Bird was the greatest but Kareem was awesome too! Thanks for reading!

The celtics were the second worst team in the league when Bird showed up and they had the best record in the league his rookie year, talk about an impact, still the biggest turnaround in nba history! Also Bird dominated Jordan over and over, Jordan would have 0 nba titles if he had come into the league 6 or 8 years earlier with Bird and Magic! Bird was 23 and 11 in the regular season against Jordan and 12 and 0 in the playoffs and that includes the year that Mchale went out in game 1 with a broken foot and Parish had a messed up ankle that required surgery in the offseason and Bird still swept Jordan and Pippen 4 to 0 ! The only games Jordan won were when Bird was was injured and had to lay on the sidelines because his back was so messed up and the games were still close! I am a fan of Jordan and Magic but a bigger fan of Bird because he was the best! Bird averaged 24.3 points, over 10 rebounds and almost seven assists, Jordan averaged 30 points, 4 rebounds, and less than 5 assists and both averaged almost two steals a game . Bird was a great team player who made his teammates better, Jordan was a great player but didn't make anyone else much better. Kareem should be in the discussion for the goat 24.5 points, 14 rebounds, 4.5 assists and he won a title with Milwaukee with no talent around him. He also averaged 32 points a game his first 6 or 7 years until teamed with magic, worthy, mcadoo, Wilkes, and all of those great players where shooting all the time would have been detrimental to the team! I still think Bird was the greatest but Kareem was awesome too! Thanks for reading!

It seems that (1) and (2) are somewhat mutually contradictory.

Related question - if Olajuwon or Jabbar would own the league today why do we not see 20 year old Olajuwons or Jabbars? Where did such big man talents go?

That's a heck of an argument you got there! "Because...he was the best!".

Nice try on exaggerations (it seems apparent you are talking career avg's)

Bird did not avg "almost 7 assists", but 6.3

Jordan did not "avg less than 5 assists", but 5.3

"Both" did NOT "average almost 2 steals a game", Jordan avg 2.35, Bird 1.73

Jordan did not "avg 4 rebs per game", but 6.2

No need to make things up to support you case. This is the internet age you know. One can look things up pretty quickly, eh?

Bird was a better passer. But Jordan had plenty of assists, and a guy that unstoppable brought ALLLLL the attention to him, which certainly made other guys "better" by allowing them to be open.

Look, I love Larry Bird. I was a Celts fan all of his career. I grew up with Larry Bird. I still think Jordan was better. He was simply unstoppable, and unstoppable when it mattered most.

6 for 6 NBA titles. It's just so hard to argue with that. Especially when he was carrying SO much of the weight for his teams each and every time.

(1) The march of the great big men over the years has been halted because of rules designed specifically against them.

(2) A great big man today would blow the league up. Olajuwon or Jabbar would own the league. IMO.[/quote]

It seems that (1) and (2) are somewhat mutually contradictory.

Related question - if Olajuwon or Jabbar would own the league today why do we not see 20 year old Olajuwons or Jabbars? Where did such big man talents go?[/quote]

The rules have been repeatedly altered to neutralize the dominant big man, and yet the best bigs still dominated, albeit to a lesser degree than they might have had the rules been left alone. When Alcindor was still permitted to dunk in college, he was unbelievably dominant. Look at video. My jaw dropped. Wilt averaged over 50ppg with a 12-foot lane in the NBA. They widened it to 16 feet and he was still dominant. Just not THAT dominant. Imagine if they had kept it at 12 feet. Imagine if it stayed at 6 feet like when Mikan played. What I am saying is that despite all of the attempts to curb the dominant big man-----the best of them would still rule the game. There is nobody in the league today who could check a prime Jabbar or Olajuwon.

I think playing with your back to the basket on the block is a lost art. Players with length want to handle the ball and play facing the basket. Olajuwon emerged as a star 30 years ago----and today's centers (like Dwight Howard) go to HIM for help. It is such a rare skill now that a marginal player like a Karl Anthony Towns gets drooled over because he's 6'11" and scored in spurts in the Final 4 with his back to the basket. I don't know why it's faded as a skill set so badly----/perhaps it's not viewed as glamorous and 6'10" kids in AAU leagues all want to be Kevin Garnetts. Too bad. Because if one of them wanted to be an Olajuwon instead------he'd have the market cornered on low post offense. And he'd control the paint defensively.

Solomon Grundy wrote:

(1) The march of the great big men over the years has been halted because of rules designed specifically against them.

(2) A great big man today would blow the league up. Olajuwon or Jabbar would own the league. IMO.

It seems that (1) and (2) are somewhat mutually contradictory.

Related question - if Olajuwon or Jabbar would own the league today why do we not see 20 year old Olajuwons or Jabbars? Where did such big man talents go?[/quote]

I think playing with your back to the basket on the block is a lost art.[/quote]

Along with pick and roll half court basket ball. Teams today are not built with strong high Basketball IQ front courts with good pick and roll, and passing skills. Part of it is the apparent lack of quality bigs with good court awareness and passing skills. It seems the league is dominated by slashing shooting guards and small forwards who would rather drive to the basket and kick the ball outside for three's as opposed to roll defenses around with smart passing to create open lanes and higher percentage inside scoring. It's all one on one drives, dunks and three pointers. When is the last time we saw sky hooks used? Maybe I am too nostalgic for the old days.