rekrunner wrote:
Where were non-africans during the EPO era, while the Africans were setting records, and their cycling colleagues were one bike length ahead of the testers?
pancaker wrote:If PEDs does not work for the elites, how come no one has ever come remotely close to the WR of 3k/5k/10k from the EPO era?
Dieter Baumann, Bob Kennedy, Fermin Cacho, Rui Silva to name a few.
Renato, those rhetorical questions you ask do seem to overlook the fact that while a great deal of talent has gone into the road races, most of those races have not tested much if at all for much of the period in question from 2000-2015, that the IAAF and many national federations such as the Kenyan and Russian federations have been absolutely corrupt and suppressed drug positives, and hence, that we cannot trust either the road times or the track times. There are also many other drugs than epo that may be effective and that certainly are being used. We've just found out about meldonium being extremely widespread. There are others. How could we possibly trust any of the results here? In recent days I've been watching again or for the first time numerous elite races from the 1970s and 1980s in which there are African athletes but the European and American athletes are of equal or greater caliber. Genetics and altitude and training culture cannot account for the utter dominance since the early 1990s of African athletes. They competed on a level playing field in the 1960s and 1970s and 1980s.
But are we sure that EPO era is over? And there is also the problem of other substances
http://www.panorama.it/sport/altri-sport/tour_de_france-doping-donati-orica/
microdosing, GH, etc.
7 seconds per kilometer doesn't transform a donkey into a fast horse, but at high levels makes difference........ if these studies are reliable
frankfarter wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Where were non-africans during the EPO era, while the Africans were setting records, and their cycling colleagues were one bike length ahead of the testers?
Dieter Baumann, Bob Kennedy, Fermin Cacho, Rui Silva to name a few.
Some of the Spanish distance records that may be of interest:
1500 m 3:28.95 FermÃn Cacho 13 August 1997 Weltklasse Zürich Switzerland Zürich, Switzerland
10000 m 27:14.44 Fabián Roncero 4 April 1998 Portugal Lisbon, Portugal
10 km (road) 27:55 Juan Carlos de la Ossa 22 May 2005 Great Manchester Run United Kingdom Manchester, United Kingdom
15 km (road) 42:51+ Fabián Roncero 1 April 2001 Germany Berlin, Germany
20 km (road) 56:51+ Fabián Roncero 1 April 2001 Berlin Half Marathon Germany Berlin, Germany
Half marathon 59:52 Fabián Roncero 1 April 2001 Berlin Half Marathon Germany Berlin, Germany
30 km (road) 1:29:28+ Fabián Roncero 19 April 1998 Rotterdam Marathon Netherlands Rotterdam, Netherlands
Marathon 2:06:52 Julio Rey 23 April 2006 Hamburg Marathon Germany Hamburg, Germany
Canova of Oz wrote:
.
Consider this. Find a high school coach that is heavily influenced by the Canova method. Their athletes are frequently hurt, the teams themselves are mediocre, but they have one or two that survive the system and end up pretty good. With doping, their entire team would probably do great because the system does not work unless you have certain "advantages."
.
What you are demonstrating is a coach who thinks they understand Canova's system and applying it completely incorrectly to his/her athletes nothing more.
Mixing it up with the East Africans?
preciously jaded wrote:
frankfarter wrote:Dieter Baumann, Bob Kennedy, Fermin Cacho, Rui Silva to name a few.
Some of the Spanish distance records that may be of interest:
1500 m 3:28.95 FermÃn Cacho 13 August 1997 Weltklasse Zürich Switzerland Zürich, Switzerland
10000 m 27:14.44 Fabián Roncero 4 April 1998 Portugal Lisbon, Portugal
10 km (road) 27:55 Juan Carlos de la Ossa 22 May 2005 Great Manchester Run United Kingdom Manchester, United Kingdom
15 km (road) 42:51+ Fabián Roncero 1 April 2001 Germany Berlin, Germany
20 km (road) 56:51+ Fabián Roncero 1 April 2001 Berlin Half Marathon Germany Berlin, Germany
Half marathon 59:52 Fabián Roncero 1 April 2001 Berlin Half Marathon Germany Berlin, Germany
30 km (road) 1:29:28+ Fabián Roncero 19 April 1998 Rotterdam Marathon Netherlands Rotterdam, Netherlands
Marathon 2:06:52 Julio Rey 23 April 2006 Hamburg Marathon Germany Hamburg, Germany
What about the "fake it till you make it concept"? I was taught that in business, in my current career and I've gone from $35K/yr to $140k/yr. I think athletes that are clean that think everyone is clean raises his/her game to compete with the best in the world, pushing them to limits they never thought possible.
Bob Kennedy thought 13-flat was the norm, so he trained for a 13-flat. In college, I thought you had to run 14:00 to be good at the DI level, and I ran 13:54. I joined the group mentality.
Join the group mentality.
EPO works. Sorry. It's true. Even referencing all your years of experience and sprinkling in the technical language doesn't sway the discerning student of the sport. You lose credibility denying that elite runners aren't benefiting from EPO and other designer pharmas. The pidgeon english is also nuts.
rekrunner wrote:
Mixing it up with the East Africans?
I was making a comment a about an country where performances were relatively strong for that country during the EPO era. Now you a talking about something else.
But anyway, if we consider the EPO era to be from 1992 to 2003 (men results only as I can recall these off the top of my head):
The marathon:
Spain: 3 gold medals in the world champs marathon, 2 silvers in the world champs marathon TOTAL 5 medals (3 golds)
ALL of E. Africa: 1 gold, 1 silver at world champs, 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze at olympics TOTAL 5 medals (2 golds)
The 1500m:
Spain: 2 silvers, 2 bronzes at the world championships; 1 gold, 1 silver at the olympics TOTAL 6 medals (1 gold)
ALL of East Africa: 2 silvers 1 bronze at the world championships; 1 gold 2 bronzes at olympics TOTAL: 6 medals (1 gold)
Given that I am comparing one country with a small talent pool in track in field distance events (most endurance talent will have been going to sports like soccer and cycling) to the area of a large continent with a population several times larger than Spain I think we can say that Spain was not doing too badly during the EPO era when compared with E. Africa in head to head competitions.
InCredibility wrote:
Jon,
One reason that Canova has credibility is that he has coached world class athletes with his ideas and has proven them. He also understands some real physiology. He uses the terminology of an educated man in this area. Heck, he has posted and explained blood data for some of his athletes on this message board.
That sort of data and physiology seems to make you lash out at others with insults, then follow up with "you just don't get it". Canova can probably really explain some of the biomechanics that help and hinder a runner. He might even say that it can be done different ways to achieve the same result. He has stated that many factors are involved in performance. A concept with which you are unfamiliar.
The big problem on this board with Canova is the hammering over and over of "EPO does not work on elite athletes". Very few people believe this so he gets attacked for that stance. I would like to know how he feels about other drugs. I would also like to know why he is taking blood data from athletes if there is no intention to modify blood chemistry.
Jon Orange wrote:EPO blah blah blah.
Elite runners don't use more oxygen to race faster, they use less. They are more efficient runners. The have better OXYGEN ECONOMY.
Basic physiology anyone?
What the heck are you going on about? Nobody on letsrun is more interested in physiology than me.
InCredibility wrote:
Thanks for the quote. Lactate testing is a partial answer. But lactate testing does not require a full blood screen, nor is it done before and after a block of training while at rest. It is done during or immediately following training. It is also an academic number with no direct relevance to the real goal - speed. If you can run 13:00 for a 5k does it matter if your LT is 8 or 14 mml at the end?
Tell me more about "the new type of athletes have a high ability in buffering". Is this a new genetic anomaly that previously did not exist? Or is this enhanced by training or other external factor?
fred wrote:Canova:
"For athletes in top shape for 5000m (duration under 13') we can suppose an ability to stay about 9-10 mml for the central part of the race (for example, during second, third and fourth km), only moving from 8 to 10 mml, while the last km can launch their lactate till values of 14-16 mml.
If you take the lactate immediately after the test, you cant have a real value, because for the next minutes the concentration of lactate in the blood continues to grow, while the production of lactate inside the muscle fibres already is over.
Going to the marathon, the new type of athletes have a high ability in buffering. One of the reasons of this may be the improvement in the permeability of the membrane. One of the ways for defining "Endurance" is "the speed of removing lactate from muscle fibers or buffering".
So, if with marathon runners "old style" our goal was to reduce the production of lactate at the speed of the race, in order to teach to the muscle fibres to use as fuel, at the same speed, more fatty acid and less glycogen (and this fact could build the ability in lasting longer at the Marathon Pace), now we look for increasing the speed of buffering, allowing the athletes in using a part of the lactate they produce."
As you sustpect, there is no new training. Lactate is NOT buffered. Lactate production itself acts as a buffer to H+ from anaerobic ATP turnover. Unfortunately Renato has not grasped the concept of running economy/efficiecy proplerly.
rekrunner wrote:
Where were non-africans during the EPO era, while the Africans were setting records, and their cycling colleagues were one bike length ahead of the testers?
pancaker wrote:If PEDs does not work for the elites, how come no one has ever come remotely close to the WR of 3k/5k/10k from the EPO era?
EPO doesn't work on Americans.
jjjjjj wrote:
Renato, those rhetorical questions you ask do seem to overlook the fact that while a great deal of talent has gone into the road races, most of those races have not tested much if at all for much of the period in question from 2000-2015, that the IAAF and many national federations such as the Kenyan and Russian federations have been absolutely corrupt and suppressed drug positives, and hence, that we cannot trust either the road times or the track times. There are also many other drugs than epo that may be effective and that certainly are being used. We've just found out about meldonium being extremely widespread. There are others. How could we possibly trust any of the results here? In recent days I've been watching again or for the first time numerous elite races from the 1970s and 1980s in which there are African athletes but the European and American athletes are of equal or greater caliber. Genetics and altitude and training culture cannot account for the utter dominance since the early 1990s of African athletes. They competed on a level playing field in the 1960s and 1970s and 1980s.
Now who is being rhetorical?
Renato said that Meldonium is a new (last 10 years or so) fad drug. Suddenly Meldonium is the new wonder drug. Like Amphetamines were in the 50's 60s Steroids in the 70s and 80s EPO in the 90's and 00s etc etc
What new wonder drugs are just waiting for the hype to build them into the new super drug?
EPO works wrote:
EPO works. Sorry. It's true. Even referencing all your years of experience and sprinkling in the technical language doesn't sway the discerning student of the sport. You lose credibility denying that elite runners aren't benefiting from EPO and other designer pharmas. The pidgeon english is also nuts.
Elite runners use less total oxygen not more. It's called running economy. Look it up.
REAL PHYSIOLOGY ANYONE.
Jon Orange wrote:
EPO works wrote:EPO works. Sorry. It's true. Even referencing all your years of experience and sprinkling in the technical language doesn't sway the discerning student of the sport. You lose credibility denying that elite runners aren't benefiting from EPO and other designer pharmas. The pidgeon english is also nuts.
Elite runners use less total oxygen not more. It's called running economy. Look it up.
REAL PHYSIOLOGY ANYONE.
Haven't you got your own little thread where you can jibber jabber on about stuff you have no real understanding of?
It just because a bit messy if you're doing post after post of mindless witterings on a lot of threads.
It doesn't fit with your drug obsession. Is that what you mean?
Read the thread title. It's about not being brainwashed by fools like you who are a big part of the drug problem in sport. We all know you are jealous of Renato, why else would you be posting your witterings so often?
Jon Orange wrote:
It doesn't fit with your drug obsession. Is that what you mean?
Read the thread title. It's about not being brainwashed by fools like you who are a big part of the drug problem in sport. We all know you are jealous of Renato, why else would you be posting your witterings so often?
You accept that Koch and Kratochvilova benefited greatly from steroids yet and wouldn't have run as fast without them?
No.....still a crazy person then....move along.
No, I don't accept any such thing. You're making stuff up again.
Jon Orange wrote:
No, I don't accept any such thing. You're making stuff up again.
Read it again genius.
I said that you don't accept this roundly accepted fact so therefore you're a crazy person.
Marita Koch didn't benefit from steroids? Crazy person Jon.
It's not what Renato thinks its what the runners inclined to cheat think. If they think it will work they will take it