EPO Does Work on Kenyans! Surprise!

Don't make confusion, cycling is not running. Too many times there is the big mistake to compare different sports, having completely different requirements.

In cycling, the development of STRENGTH is fundamental : we can vary the LENGTH of the stride in very simple way, USING A MAJOR GEAR (for example, one tooth more in front, or one tooth less behind). Running, this is not possible.

For doing this in cycling, riders used primarly some steroid for increasing muscle strength, and EPO for supporting the real effective doping (the steroid).

For runners, if somebody (I speak about long events, specifically from 10000m to Marathon) tries to do the same, is an idiot who can only run slower, especially in Marathon, increasing the cost of running and consequentely decreasing the ability to last long time at the same speed.

Different sports, different requirements.

Another important point that I forgot before :

THE RESEARCH OF WADA WAS DONE AT SEA LEVEL OR IN ALTITUDE ?

so we had 2 guys basically dominate track 5000/10000 for 20 yrs

are we to believe that 2 clean guys wiped the floor with every

epo cheat that lined up against them for 20yrs?

this would be the exact opposite to what happened in cycling where you couldn't win anything without epo once the peleton got hold of it

"For doing this in cycling, riders used primarly some steroid for increasing muscle strength, and EPO for supporting the real effective doping (the steroid)"

what makes you say or believe this renato?

the steroid might be more effective for cycling sprints

but not for TTs on the road which would be more equivalent to 5k/10k running

Sprintgeezer = owned

Absolutely cycling is not equivalent to 5/10 km running.

In athletics, runners need to use an almost even pace, and the level of lactate during the race NEVER can decrease, but has to remain even as long as possible, before raising in proper way at the end of the competition. And in the case of 5000m, that is the more lactic of the 2 distances you apoke about, the final level can be about 10-12 mml maximum, about 10000m no higher than 10 mml, about marathon about 3 for the most part of the race, sometimes reaching 5 mml at the end.

In cycling, riders can have DURING every race or stage some minute at very high level, and after can recover (depending on the situation) reaching a level very low, the same we have when we are seated for eating....

Some year ago, I had a seminar about altitude training in Italy, together with the Italian head coach of ski-cross Vanoi and the head coach of Olympic cyclists Fusi.

At that time, in Olympics there was still the competition "tempo" for Teams on the distance of 100 km (4 riders per team). Fusi explained that with the Italian Team (several times World Champion) they worked for bettering the technique of changing the pacer, every 30", so who was in front had to go behind, becoming the last wagon of the train. That's mean every 2' one rider had to pace for 30" and to follow for 1'30". Controlling everything with a "cardio", while pacing a rider reached about 200 HR, and in 1'30" following decreased till 150.

Don't forget the role of the resistance of air in cycling, where practically is not possible to win without a strong team.

So, a cyclist is rather like a 800m runner than like a marathon runner. Only strong riders on the mountains can have some similarity with runners of 5 and 10 km, but the ability in pedaling for 15' - 20' at max intensity (for example, Cancellara) is connected with the possibility to use a high percentage of the max muscle strength for this duration, and the role of muscle strength is very much more important that in 5 / 10 km for a runner.

good to hear from you anyhow renato

the input from coaches like yourself and antonio is great

regardless

and i hope it continues

Maybe same thing applies to baseball.....Roids did not help

an elite player like Barry Bonds hit 76 home runs in one

season? How dumb would that reasoning be? Extremely dumb!

it´s vexing, that a famous coach doesn´t realize the fact that all great endurance performances (no matter if we talk about cycling, running or rowing) come about the capability of an athlete to deliver his muscles as long as possible enough oxygen to keep up the effort.

it makes no sense to talk about this study or the effects of epo again and again.

mr canova, please put in all your energy and your reputation to establish better doping controls in east africa, it should be your priority.

his staement that sterois is the main doping agent for cycling doesn't make any sense to me

i mean we had steroids in the peleton for years

but the epo was the game changer -nobody could win clean after that

anyhow i wont bother to attack a valuable contributor like renato on a particular issue

he entitled to his belief same as me

J.R. wrote:

António Cabral wrote:

It´s proved that EPO and other drugs do oxygen boost and oxygen carry. If it works or doesn´t, is not the main question. If carry and boost oxygen shall be illegal and unauthorised.

It used to be "proved" that bloodletting prevented illnesses and cured diseases. Maybe some athletes practiced bloodletting prior to their important competitions.

The current hysteria about epo and other drugs is the same.

I don´t see what´s the problem. If it works, shall be illegal, if doesn´t work no benefice in use it. therefore if doesn´t work no need to be out of the doping because it´s just got medicine wealth effect, and it´s not common food or supplement or integrator.

This is basically a useless debate about if it works or what works as drug for performance enhance, if works on cycling ro don´t, if works on running or don´t.

If does oxygen boost and highs up red cells is plausible to work on distance runs, It´s a possibility that does performance enhance. . If works just average runners or on top runners that are out of his best shape condition made by training, or if doesn´t work on Kenyans (or Ethiopians whatever) but kenyans aren´t the only competitors in the world of sports, therefore niether one or other of that reasons is of interest to change EPO or whatever drug as legal.

Doesn´t work on cycling ? ! Doesn´t work on kenyans ? ! Doesn´t work on world top class performers ? ! It´s not a sustained reason to be legal. It shall remain to be illegal and unauthorised since it´s not food or regular uptake substance.

I reapeat. The debate of "if EPO works" or "if EPO does performance enhance is useless.

What we know about EPO for sure is 4 things

1/some runners were caught and some on the occasions they were caught it´s when they did his best all time performances his pbs and did win runs that otherwise they wouldn´t win.

2/As it´s proved by facts - Armstrong, and others, even Marion Jones (yes she took EPO as well) it´s was been possible to take EPO without been caught.

3/Most of the world records in distance rune were done by several kind of doping, and that´s a fact.

4/Might be it´s not proved that EPO works. But since it´s proved that EPO, blood transfusions and that kind of artificial assistance doesn´t really bad and put in danger the wealth of the sportsman that does it, it´s just the reason to be illegal.

Actually the Anti-Doping organization let get down the substance detection as primary source of doping caught. I aplaude this step ahead to sport we want clean of drugs and doping.

What I expect from the contenders and from people of responsibility agents at any levl of our sport is that they do a crusade to clean up the sport from drugs.

The new meanings and the attempt of investigation to search for new substances or new ways of artificial manipulation focust in performance enhance, that since it´s not yet on the list of doping, some name it "investigation program" or "scientific research" that´s a fraude name, and be seen as the new doping search, something not yet illegal but shall be by sports moral and ethical strongly condemned.

The only research that might be done is about training and wealth substances.

I guess that while saying the the EPO doesn´t work on some contests instead of a vehement fight against the usage or fight against the undetected doping, the debate of "it works or don´t" wants to pass the idea that might be accept that someone thinks that shalln´t be illegal. This is the position of Dr. Michele Ferrari, while he is accused and condemned by the court and while he is denounced and betrayed by those that did look for his help in the past, on Ferrari´s site he continues to deny that he didn´t nothing of that and that he just is one victim.

Do you want one sincere advice ? Forget about what EPO does or don´t. This is just to fool the ignorants. This ia juat one strategic step to make it legal, what can be the other interest ?

Fight for every kind artificial manipulation or substance be illegal and get caught and the one that did use be penalised. Well, also try to learn how to performance enhance by training just.

That's a great post. And while I agree with you completely, when I try to distinguish between artificial manipulations or substances, which should be illegal, and "natural" ones, which should not. In the really old days, training was considered an unnatural manipulaton. Lots of people think altitude tents should be illegal. You could argue that moving to altitude is an unnatural manpulation for someone who's lived at sea level his whole life.

I always think that the dividing line should be whether or not a "manipulation" has the potential to be bad for the user's health. EPO can thicken the blood to the point where the heart stops. Steroids can create all sorts of health issues.

I'd be interested in your thoughts and it gives us something to discuss other than Lydiard.

Should say, "...which should be illegal and "natural" ones which should not, things get merky. In the old days..."

J.R. wrote:

That's not exactly true, because the ONLY REASON drugs are promoted & banned as they are is for the first reason, TO PROMOTE THEM and sell more of them.

The drug companies know that as long as they can blast everyone with nonsensical cr/p about drugs, that all the mindless people will believe they are good, helpful, and necessary for even their basic bodily functions.

This is exactly the reason, and exactly what's happening.

GenericID wrote:There were 12.7 million new cancer diagnoses in 2008, and this number is expected to rise to 21 million by 2030.

This shows that their bogus promotion campaigns are working.

Renato Canova wrote:

1) Why a top top top runner is at the top top top of the World ? Of sure, not only for his training, BUT BECAUSE HE HAS QUALITIES COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE AVERAGE OF NORMAL PEOPLE. The best coach in the World, with the strongest EPO program possible, CAN'T MAKE A DONKEY BECOMING A RACING HORSE (and a Kenyan running 9'10" in 3000m, or is not trained at all, or is a donkey).

Right. I appreciate and pretty much agree with everything that Renato has to say, the only difference being that EPO can magically help anyone, more than just any regular conventional natural means, not doping, not ped, not anything unusual.

Doping, pure and simple, is a scam, divides athletics and promotes the drugs, like they are some magical cure all that makes normal people into super performers, which is a bunch of hogwash.

The drugs do nothing that helps anyone. The best thing would be to get rid of WADA, the drug testing, and the drug corporations. Health in the U.S. and around the world keeps getting worse - directly BECAUSE of them - which is a much more urgent dilemma than athletics.

Mr. Canova, I don't think you appreciate the fact that cycling, just like running, takes many different forms with different physiological requirements.

At one extreme, you have the track specialists who sprint in events that last as little as a minute (the world record for the flying 200m is under 10 seconds). These world records are often set *at altitude* (completely opposite to running), because there is less air resistance. Like sprinting for runners, this is the type of strength event where steroids and other stimulants to muscle growth would be most beneficial. An example of a world class track cyclist is Chris Hoy, who weighs 200lbs (and he is by far not the heaviest):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010_World_Champs_Chris_Hoy.jpg

At the other extreme, you have the stage races that are typically won by top climbers, who try to be as light as possible. They may occasionally use testosterone to aid recovery, but certainly not to gain muscle mass. Just like distance runners, these are extreme endurance athletes, often with very low resting heart rates (an indicator of extensive endurance training) and extremely high VO2 max. Examples would be Chris Froome, favourite to win the Tour de France, or Bradley Wiggins, the reigning champion (and also Olympic time trial champion):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Christopher_Froome_TDF2012.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bradley_Wiggins,_London,_2_August_2012_

(cropped).jpg

It is riders of Wiggins' and Froome's physiology that most closely resemble distance runners, and for whom blood doping (including EPO, CERA, and old-fashioned blood transfusions are most effective.

You only have to read the records of doping cases in cycling to realise that most of them get caught boosting their red blood cell levels, not increasing muscle mass - and that includes the absolute best of the elite athletes, not just some back markers who don't train full time to maximise their potential.

yes i'm afraid that renato is incorrect on the steroids-epo issue

for the sprints sure

steroid abuse is common and more important

anyhow himself and antonio are great and important contributors so he's more than entitled to his opinion

EPO is one of the most popular and effective performance-enhancing drugs for endurance athletes, because it increases the blood's oxygen-carrying capacity.

lol

idn't it funny though wada doping up a bunch of guys and demonstrating how much they can hope to improve performance

great sales pitch like

i wonder did they advise them on evading dope tests while they was at it lol

just sayin wrote:

steroid abuse is common and more important

People ran fast before steroid use became common.

They are a muscle building magazine fad, nothing else.