Co-Worker Challenged Me to a 400

manbearpig wrote:

Every one is saying to go out fast and burn the guy. But this is not a time trial. Its one on one. Has everyone forgotten how all the distance races ended at the WC's a couple weeks ago?

Finish this guy with a monster kick.

This is why coming to a distance board for sprint advice is idiotic. A 400 in NOT a distance race! The last half of a 400 IS the race. If you are already in lactate city with 200 to go, you will become intimately connected with THE BEAR.

Clyde Hart's 4 P's:

1. PUSH for the first 80m close to all out (but not all out)

2. PACE -- maintain speed until the 200m point

3. POSITION on the curve for a strong finish

4. PRAY -- you know the rest of it

As with every other race from 100-800, you do NOT kick in a 400. The person who slows down the least usually wins the race, and this has a lot to do with relaxation during pain.

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This is not a race between 400 m runners.

This is a race between a serious jogger with condition, and a wash-upped ex college runner with an ego.

He thinks he can get by on talent. And he can if he's allowed to.

The way to deal with him is to make it hard for him. I doubt yoiu can run fasat enough to make it hard for you. At least yor friend thinks so.

So forget all these poeple telling you which sessions to do. Listen to me. I am expert at sticking it up people and embarrassing my wife.

There is only one distance that matters over the 400, and that is the 300. But you're not a 400 runner.

For you the best distance to work on is the 150. Learn how to accelerate hard and fast and maintain speed through 150. Off the turn is s great learning experience. Do 10 to 15 a session for a week or so then drop them. Accelerate hard and smooth and focus off the turn, step it out down the straight. Fast legs sand light. On your toes. Keep tall.

Key for you is holding your form at a speed you're not used to. Key for him is to hang around and use his 'superior' speed in the last 100.

Pull him off his feet and he will be out of it at 250. He'll walk home with a hamstring injury.

And for crisse sake do it before he gets a week or so of running under his legs.

I'm 10 years out of college and was alright, like a 4:12 mile guy.

I stayed in some shape for a few years after, but took a 2 year stint pretty much completely off. Ballooned up about 40 pounds over my collegiate weight. I showed up to an Alumni indoor track meet to catch up with some friends and see my old coaches towards the end of that off period and was convinced by some old team mates to jump into an alumni 4 x 400...

I ran 51 in college... hand't run a 400 in over 6 years and hadn't run in almost 2... still ran a 58.5 being fat as phug.

The point being, the 400 meters just doesn't correlate to being fit. You can muscle out a 400 without being in any kind of race shape.

Personally, I would never back down from a challenge like that. If he beats you, so what? At least you'll know how fast you can a run a quarter. I guess I don't think losing or winning a 400 proves anything... but it would be fun.

increase your mileage then taper for 2 weeks

Curious to hear how this turns out! Good luck! Remember this is work related so always show good sportsmanship. He could beat you. Or you might beat him.

not a sprinter wrote:

This thing is about 9 days away and I don't want it to interfere with my regular training too much. If I have the choice of spreading out ~3 time trials, 400m all out, over the next 9 days -or- doing 1 or 2 workouts, say 8x200 with full recovery, which would you recommend?

In my 20's, I hadn't run for 5 years. One night at 11pm I walked a mile to a dirt track, ran a 440 in 53.7 in tennis shoes and regular shorts, and walked home.

If the guy is confident of beating you then he probably will.

I would get the challenge changed to a mile. That way it can be of some benefit to both of you and the results can be more useful. If you're intent on racing the 400 then good luck! I would do sessions like the following, always with a good warmup ahead of time.

easy running 2 miles or more

10 laps of sprinting 100m & jogging 300's

day 1) 3x 300m - 20 minute recoveries

day 2) easy running

day 3) 3x 250m - 20 minute recoveries

day 4) easy running

day 5) 3x 200m - 20 minute recoveries

day 6,7,8) easy running

day 9) usual good warmup

walk around for 10-20 minutes

race

not a sprinter wrote:

I told him that I was going to try adding weekly track workouts to my training this fall (I tried a couple and it didn't really stick). He expressed some interest in joining me for them [...] I didn't really want to do the race - it's kind of lose-lose for me since he is out of shape (look stupid if I lose, don't look that great if I win).

It's win-win. If he beats you, you have a new training buddy for your track workouts, where you can also show him that he cannot keep up with you on your 5x1000m intervals. If you beat him, well, you win (and you might still end up with a training buddy).

As has been said a few times, don't go out too slowly, try to wear him out with a constant hard pace.

Do you run in lanes? If so, whoever is further inside will be at a great advantage if you don't both run your fastest possible time (and that's hard to do if you don't know what that time is). If you don't run in lanes, then obviously try to be on the inside in the bends, particularly the second one, but don't run wide in the first bend either.

Jeremy Wariner wrote:

All this strategy and discussion is irrelevant. If neither of you have trained you're both going to pull hamstrings by the 250 mark anyway.

This.

since i'm one of the few posters on this thread that have actually won a race like this maybe you should listen to me. throw out the crash training and pick the right tactics.

the other guy is going to go out way too fast anyways. just sit on him and pick it up late when he has absolutely no response. dont be stupid and look like an ass rigging up the last 50m.

JUST WIN THE DAMN RACE.

I've seen high schoolers run between 18-19 minutes for 5K in XC, then run sub 50 in the 400. So I'd say 5K time has no correlation to 400 time. What you should do is make it a 3 race competition, 40 yards, 400 meters, Mile, maybe even throw a medicine ball toss and a vertical jump in the mix too. Then top it off with a pie eating contest and a beer chug!

Lots of advice here, some of it serious and I would hope to god most is not.

Fact: 400 speed and 5k on up have very little correlation between the two. Completely different muscles and cardio systems.

Fact: You aren't going to do 3 perfect workouts and be 5 seconds faster in like 7 days of training. Ain't gonna happen brother. It take 2 weeks to realize the full benefits of any workout. Ever heard the term "the hay is in the barn"?

My opinion: Run normally and don't do anything to potentially risk injury until the race. Maybe some faster 70 or so meter pickups to see what it feels like to run that fast. However, nothing is going to make you faster.

My opinion: Ignore tactics. If you can run a reasonably even split race, just get to the finish as fast as you can. I've run more than a few 400 races on a track post high school and college, it's gonna go by really fast. There's really not a ton of thinking that's gonna happen. Run hard, turn left, stay relaxed, push down the home stretch. That's about all you'll be able to think about.

Opinion: Likely the race has already been decided. This guy will either be able to crush a 400 or not. The only way to know is to race and see what happens. Like someone else said, "Be gracious" up front in the event that he does beat you.

Just be sure that you understand that a 400 meter dash has way more to do with inherent talent than anything else.

Have some fun and maybe you might win!?!

This reminds me... does anyone have the link to the rojo/wejo race?

Now this I would like to see...

If he were smart, he would have challenged you to a 100. If you were smart, you would have made it a mile.

When I ran back in high school I was always forced to be anchor for the 4x400 despite being a mile / 2 mile guy (small school, not very good).

That being said I was a decent runner -- 4:25 mile, 9:40 2 mile, but nothing overly spectacular. What I was taught was to split the 400 into three parts.

The first 7 seconds or so were generally an all out sprint because it's important to get out fast. Mentally it helps too. If you're running in lanes there's a huge boost if you're already ahead of the guy in the first 70 meters.

But it's important, obviously, not to burn out, so what my coach suggested to me was to stride out on the back straight. You don't want to accelerate more but try to maintain your speed while focusing on preserving energy. The back straight is key: good form, focus, and relaxation. If you're already running tight on the back straight it'll come back to haunt you the last 100.

The third phase was from the last 150-175m. Once you're entering the middle of the last turn slowly start building up. If you're not confined to lanes I'd swing wide in the last turn (run right in between lane 1 and 2) to make it harder for him to go around and to give you a mini-momentum boost (it feels like a mini-turbo boost when you swing a little wide on the last turn).

All out first 70-80m, conserve on the back straight will maintaining form, and then build it the last 150. If you're way ahead be sure to finish in lane 6 or 7.

You're living the dream! A pick-up race! Runners are always secretly jealous of people who have pick-up basketball games, etc. So long as you can both have a good time doing this and it doesn't damage your professional or personal relationship, then it's a go for sure.

As others have said, the 5k times don't tell you much. My 5k PR is only 16:05, but I ran a 1:53.1 800 and a 51.x 400 (I was clearly not a 400 runner) in college. I had teammates who could run sub-15 for 5k, but could barely break 60 for the 400.

You obviously don't want to get hurt on this thing, so while you're not going to get much speed out of a couple of sessions on the track, you might reduce your risk of injury. The other goal of a speed session or two is going to be giving yourself a chance to focus on staying relaxed. The mantra is "fast is relaxed." When you're starting to hurt, you want to keep your face and shoulders totally relaxed (your cheeks should still be bouncing and your shoulders shouldn't be pulling up to your neck), and you want to keep your head level--don't let your head drift back.

A common mistake people make at the end of a fast race is to try reaching with every step, but the overstriding will just slow you down (and won't help with the staying relaxed part). As you come out of the turn, don't worry about stride length at all, but think about taking steps as fast as you can. In your head: "turnover, turnover, turnover."

Somebody mentioned doing something like 600, 400, 300 8 days out. I'd actually do something like 200, 400, 600, 800, 600, 400, 200 and as you come back down and are under fatigue, you can work on staying relaxed and turning over. Since you're not going to get faster from a workout, at least you can work on the mind-body relationship to stay smooth at the end of the 400.

Next week Tuesday or Wednesday, go do a few 200 meter accelerations (start out slow, continually crank up the speed, be near all-out the last 25 meters). Get your muscles ready and keep that focus on relaxed form.

And "sit and kick" is a ridiculous strategy for any 400, but I'd say particularly so in this case. I'm guessing based on your background that you don't have insane footspeed, so "kicking" isn't goinag to be speeding up very much. You need to run smooth and fast the whole time.

A friend of mine and I had a challenge like this a couple years ago. He was a sprinter when he started college, and ended up doing cross and the 800 for his last year or two. After college he got married and fell out of shape a bit, but still trains for road races. I was a distance guy who almost never raced under 5k. My 5k had been improving steadily, and his 5k was getting better but he was losing his speed. We raced an 800, so this may not quite be relevant, but anyway: I ran 69/69 for a 2:18, he ran 69/79 for a 2:28.

Point is, my money's on you, since you're currently in better shape. He might have a chance if he's able to keep form the whole way, but I doubt he can.

this guy is either a troll or a loser. either way, sucks to be him.

He might have you over 200m but you should be able to beat someone over a full lap who has not trained for 8 yrs