New Mexico Invite results

C'mon Brit in USA. You said: "I am a brit at Uni in the states, and I know a lot of the Brits at UNM. We have this discussion a lot.

An interesting point ‘Sandy’ made was that:

“… give the scholarship to the local 18 year old kid who ran as fast in high school as did the import when he/she was 18 years old.”

Yet I do not see this as being true in any of the cases of the foreign roster in UNM, a quick internet search yeilds:" and so forth...

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You know full well that you are comparing apples to oranges with these 18 year old times for certain Brits. You guys have the Club System over their for your 16-18 year olds, and that system produces times that don't really relate to our prep system here in the USA. I've complimented a German girl who ran a 2:04 at age 18. Her response: "Well yes, but you have to understand that was achieved in our club system, with associated national championships and so forth that result in faster early age times than Americans achieve" (not exact words, but very close).

I think the point the gentleman from Britain is making is that not all the British athletes on UNM roster are hired guns like you suggest. It appears that many of them have come to UNM and gotten a lot better. He mentions a few British athletics by name that by all accounts are under the age of 21. I want to stress the fact that most really good, to elite level American athletes get athletic scholarship. I also want to stress that most schools will recruit all the best American distance runners, only to have their efforts rejected. Therefore, they either give their scholarship to lesser American prospects or really good foreign athletes. To a coach that wants to win has no choice in this matter.

Regarding your apple to oranges comment... I understand why you make your point about American runners should get the nod over a foreign kid if they have the same PR's at 18. But practical thinking about doesn't allow your point to hold up. Your assuming the 18 year old American will defiantly develop 1, and 2 your assuming the foreign kid won't get any better. Your also assuming that every foreign athlete is over 21 or 22. In the perfect world there would be enough great American distance kids to go around but there isn't. Some foreign athlete helps right now, some need to be developed, just like American kids. So again its important you understand American kids are not losing out on opportunities they deserve or merit. Our prep system for the most part is really good. We have a lot of very good high school coaches and to suggest the club system is better in Europe is an insult to these very high school coaches in the states. I also would remind you of all the track clubs in America. Go to the results for JO's and see just how our systems produce times that "don't relate". The reason the Europeans have club teams is to give the elite level athletes over their a place to train because they don't have a collegiate system like we do in America. So instead of being upset with importing older foreigners, think of it like signing someone from a Junior College. Lastly, I don't see an American girl that's running 2:04 in the half (there are about a half dozen in the states I assume) attending UNM just yet. Even though UNM is one of the best place in America to train for mid distance and long distance elite american talent still don't consider UNM yet, (I stress yet because that is changing daily). So ultimately if they want a 2:04 800m runner they may need to hit the foreign trails for the time being.

I know the UNM Frosh Mike Asay and for as well as he's doing he's not an athletic scholarship of any kind. I was told UNM simply doesn't give scholarship to frosh, they have to earn it first.

Mike assay is going to be great, but yes out of high school his times weren't elite just yet so he didn't get a scholarship, he just happened to be one of those diamonds in the rough, he will definitely get scholarship money for next year.

THis is how it works, its like jerry maguire said: "theres genius everywhere, but until they turn pro its like popcorn in the pan, some pop, some don't.."

Unless incoming freshman are already running close to 4 min for the mile and in the low 14s or better for 5k they will not get much or no money at all to good running programs.

giving money to someone who is running 15 min 5ks is not good business, because if they don't improve it will be a wasted scholarship, but if you offer these kids a spot on the team, they may improve and then you can give them money.

But giving scholarships to kids running around 4min, and low 14 5ks even if they don't improve, at least they will still be fast enough to make a decent impact.

Its all about risk management.

i'vegotit! wrote:

SO WHETHER FOREIGNERS ARE INVOLVED OR NOT THESE KIDS WILL NOT BE HANDED OUT SCHOLARSHIPS ANYWAY!!!

With your hypothetical situation (no foreigners), what happens to those scholarships? It's all supply and demand. Fast, older athletes change the "deserving" definition. Do you really think coaches are not going use their allotted scholarships when they only get 12.5 for XC and T&F?

I have no problem with the Brits (and others) taking advantage of the NCAA system as it's currently set up. It's a great opportunity for someone to continue their education and get their running subsidized (travel, equipment, coaching), but my problem is that it's not an equal playing field when older athletes have extra years of development over a traditional-aged college student. I feel the same about the Mormons. I don't think religion should give them an exception. As I stated before, I simply believe the NCAA should have stricter age limitations.

I also understand the points brought up regarding recruiting challenges to different institutions. Wetmore being able to recruit U.S. kids to CU is very different than trying to recruit Americans to UTEP. Who in their right mind would want to spend 4-5 years in El Paso?! No offense to my friends across the border. At the same, I think some programs "get lazy" in their approach, especially when they know they have a pipeline to older, more developed athletes. It's well within the rules, but that doesn't mean some of us can't see it as a flaw in the system.

danielombardi says: "I know the UNM Frosh Mike Asay and for as well as he's doing he's not an athletic scholarship of any kind. I was told UNM simply doesn't give scholarship to frosh, they have to earn it first."

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So, there you are. Mike can't have a scholarship because he is an 18 year old frosh; meanwhile there are at least 13 imports on the XC roster, all of whom I assume are on scholarship--nothing to do with who is running faster than others.

abq scene wrote:

[quote]

With your hypothetical situation (no foreigners), what happens to those scholarships? It's all supply and demand. Fast, older athletes change the "deserving" definition. Do you really think coaches are not going use their allotted scholarships when they only get 12.5 for XC and T&F?

The scholarships simply WILL NOT GET USED ON FRESHMAN that aren't fast enough to deserve one, if no foreigners are involved the scholarships will simply go to the soph, junior, senior athletes that turn out to be fast, they will still NOT be given to freshmans that aren't fast enough.

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So, there you are. Mike can't have a scholarship because he is an 18 year old frosh; meanwhile there are at least 13 imports on the XC roster, all of whom I assume are on scholarship--nothing to do with who is running faster than others.

He is running amazing now, but before he showed up to practice his times weren't the degree that would earn him a scholarship, he is going to be one of the great ones and will probably be on scholarship next year, but as of right now someone can't just get an athletic scholarship after the school year has already started.

So THERE YOU GO this proves my point, he was one of the runners that wasn't quite fast enough based on times to earn a scholarship, but now he is running great and will be "developed" and also probably get a scholarship because he is fast enough now.

i'vegotit! wrote:

if no foreigners are involved the scholarships will simply go to the soph, junior, senior athletes that turn out to be fast, they will still NOT be given to freshmans that aren't fast enough.

And you just proved Sandy's point... those scholarships will go to U.S. kids ("soph, junior, senior athletes") who deserve a scholarship rather than an older, foreign athlete.

Sandy Rivalson wrote:

So, there you are. Mike can't have a scholarship because he is an 18 year old frosh; meanwhile there are at least 13 imports on the XC roster, all of whom I assume are on scholarship--nothing to do with who is running faster than others.

This is NOT TRUE at all. That may have been what was told to Asay, and it could have been told to him as an easy letdown so he wasnt hurt that he couldnt get a scholarship. It could also be used as a motivation factor for freshmen to stay focused and work hard enough to possibly earn a scholarship.

However, there were freshmen on the team last year that were on scholarship, and there are a few on scholarship this year. They are even from NM!

You are actually driving very good (but not great) high schoolers away from the sport. Foreigners may raise the standard for a very few....Rupp, Ritz, AJ....but you are driving thousands of decent HSers away from the sport. They are not just competing against fellow Americans for a scholarship - their competition is worldwide. This will only change at the NCAA level when a smaller college recruits the Lithuainian (sp) national team and wins the NCAA basketball title.

What part of NATIONAL Collegiate Athletic Assn. don't you understand??????

The problem with the logic of many of you on here is that a college coach does not have the job of improving American distance running. The job is to get the program he is coaching at better and to do it legally. That is what Joe Franklin is doing. Like him, hate him - does not matter. He is doing what he was hired to do.

That last line about NATIONAL Collegiate Athletic Assn means nothing so that is a poor argument. Most sports have a lot of international athletes. Coaches do what they need to do to win.

New Mexico is for a large part spending their scholarships on older athletes who only have 2 years of eligibility left; and that goes not only for older brits but also for older guys like Chris Barnicle and such. Looks like there is not very much development going on there, just a lot of buying already decent guys.

iyyt wrote:

The problem with the logic of many of you on here is that a college coach does not have the job of improving American distance running. The job is to get the program he is coaching at better and to do it legally. That is what Joe Franklin is doing. Like him, hate him - does not matter. He is doing what he was hired to do.

That last line about NATIONAL Collegiate Athletic Assn means nothing so that is a poor argument. Most sports have a lot of international athletes. Coaches do what they need to do to win.

What "national" means is there are no American kids on full-ride athletic scholarships at British universities; there are no American kids in the superb German club system.

There is no give & take from other nations....only take.

abq scene wrote:

i'vegotit! wrote:

if no foreigners are involved the scholarships will simply go to the soph, junior, senior athletes that turn out to be fast, they will still NOT be given to freshmans that aren't fast enough.

And you just proved Sandy's point... those scholarships will go to U.S. kids ("soph, junior, senior athletes") who deserve a scholarship rather than an older, foreign athlete.

Not at all, he was talking about 18 year old developing athletes, so I still proved his argument wrong, I didn't say anything against older american kids getting scholarships taken away.

Except many German clubs will gladly take any athlete, as will clubs in Holland, therefore one can assume so would those in England-- they're just not going to pay for your education as they're not tied together. So the foreigner abusing American generosity is a pretty lame argument.

In regards to developing talent, if I were a freshman with the talent of a Pittman, I'd much rather be learning from the likes of Fraser & Co. than leading the team.

Obviously we are not going to be in agreement on this issue. I'm just wondering how people would feel if Lananna at Oregon brought in 2 or 3 Kenyans, a couple top Brits and added them to his already great Americans. I suspect he would win every national championship for years and you people would bitch about it. Am I wrong?

Prozac Nation wrote:

Except many German clubs will gladly take any athlete, as will clubs in Holland, therefore one can assume so would those in England-- they're just not going to pay for your education as they're not tied together. So the foreigner abusing American generosity is a pretty lame argument.

In regards to developing talent, if I were a freshman with the talent of a Pittman, I'd much rather be learning from the likes of Fraser & Co. than leading the team.

The German clubs may gladly take an athlete, but the athlete is going to have to pay his own expenses...that is the big difference. Mark Wetmore at Colorado will gladly accept foreign student/athletes if they pay their own way.

Even if NCAA limited colleges to two foreigners on scholarship, there would be a hue & cry...from Americans.

Quite similar to the immigration debate.