lagat 3:32.56 in Morocco

I still have an open mind about Lagat, but do wonder why (if he was clean) he would quietly withdraw without a fuss from the 2003 world champs? This was his first and best opportunity in the post El G era to nab a bronze and he just let it go? From memory it was all very hush hush, kept quiet until the B came out, and no one questioned the test AT ALL until the B came through!

If I had turned up a false positive I would be livid and demanding a quick B test to still get me on that start-line.

jingle bowels wrote:

I still have an open mind about Lagat, but do wonder why (if he was clean) he would quietly withdraw without a fuss from the 2003 world champs? This was his first and best opportunity in the post El G era to nab a bronze and he just let it go? From memory it was all very hush hush, kept quiet until the B came out, and no one questioned the test AT ALL until the B came through!

If I had turned up a false positive I would be livid and demanding a quick B test to still get me on that start-line.

You forget that he didn't have a choice in the matter. Once the Kenyan federation was told that he had an 'A' positive they withdrew him from Worlds. That's how it should work. However, what was not protocol was the Kenyan Federation announcing that Lagat had a positive 'A' test before the 'B' sample had been examined. And as it was found out, the red flag on the 'A' sample was in do to improper handling (I'm reminded of the ridiculous assertion that any one drug test could be impossible to err; poppy seeds will throw a flag up on an opiate test).

Lagat is NOT ON EPO. Are you serious? Have you ever watched his form? He's Fast BECAUSE he's Kenyan and because his form is flawless. He ran a 3:26 in his prime, it makes sense that he's down a little bit to 3:32 now. You honestly think he has been doping this whole time?

electron1661 wrote:

You honestly think he has been doping this whole time?

Many haven't been doing very much of that at all.

fawn lebowitz wrote:

electron1661 wrote:

You honestly think he has been doping this whole time?

Many haven't been doing very much of that at all.

While taking a stab at my post, claiming it to be the dumbest thing you've read here in a long time (which is absolutely impossible on this message board), you quickly established that you're taking stabs at anyone (all) who believe mosts of these athletes are using PED's. Thanks for discrediting yourself and anything else you choose to post for now on. Now, change your name(s) again and continue swinging in the air.

barry sanders wrote:

fawn lebowitz wrote:

Many haven't been doing very much of that at all.

While taking a stab at my post, claiming it to be the dumbest thing you've read here in a long time (which is absolutely impossible on this message board), you quickly established that you're taking stabs at anyone (all) who believe mosts of these athletes are using PED's. Thanks for discrediting yourself and anything else you choose to post for now on. Now, change your name(s) again and continue swinging in the air.

Is it really that hard? I advocate using critical thought and reasoning. It's not about "anybody using PEDs". What you're saying is that if I'm a journalist with the Atlanta Constitution-Journal, and one of my fellow writers at the paper writes an award winning story and expose, I should assume that he plagiarized it, because it's happened before, in very high profile instances, without any examination of the evidence surrounding the article or award.

So for Lagat: expert analysis says he had a false positive, combined with an exemplary record from his manager and coach, consistent racing record, etc. = not a cheat.

Ramzi: erratic results, highly unusual racing program, and coached by Khalid Boulami, who coached his own brother to doped up times = awful cheat.

Just as the journalist would be without foundation to assume every other writer is plagiarizing and fabricating details and accounts, it's baseless and ignorant for you or anyone else to make a blanket statement about hundreds and thousands of people from across the world without any substantive evidence.

jingle bowels wrote:

I still have an open mind about Lagat, but do wonder why (if he was clean) he would quietly withdraw without a fuss from the 2003 world champs? This was his first and best opportunity in the post El G era to nab a bronze and he just let it go? From memory it was all very hush hush, kept quiet until the B came out, and no one questioned the test AT ALL until the B came through!

If I had turned up a false positive I would be livid and demanding a quick B test to still get me on that start-line.

I agree. I don't KNOW that Lagat has used EPO, but it shouldn't surprise his supporters that there are those out there who are suspicious of him for several reasons.

Firstly, the argument made above by jingle bowels.

Secondly, if his samples in 2003 were stored incorrectly, why?

And, how many other negative results have also been stored this way, resulting in incorrect negatives.

To me, Jones's positive A sample test for EPO in 2006, which was quickly declared wrong by the B sample, even though she later confessed to PED use and was accused of using EPO by her former husband and Conte from as far back as 1999, makes me question the whole set up and abuse of power by federations. Could not both Lagat and Jones been given the benefit of the doubt. He kept his head down, she blew it when the whole fraud allegation blew up in her face.

Can we really sit here and say "of course Lagat is innocent as the testers admitted that the samples weren't stored correctly,....." and the relevant federations agreed on this, when Carl Lewis, that paragon of truth and virtue (not to mention the least suspicious person you'll ever find of other athletes! ;0)), was tested positive 3 times in 1988, but the federations involved decided to keep it quiet and leak it out many years later! That is a cover up, whatever way you "spin" it.

After this type of impropriety, is it any wonder that people on here should question any federation's assurances that such a high profile athlete is innocent.

Thirdly, it's strange that Lagat could run faster over 800m (1:46.02) when he was 23 (1998) and had a relatively modest 1500m pb of 3:34.5 (much slower than Cram, Aouita, Coe, Ovett, EL G, etc had run by that age) than he could at 29 (2004), when he only managed 1:46.96. Yet he was much faster over 1500m (3:27.40). Of course an athlete doesn't always run their fastest times they are capable of in any given season, and 800m was not his main event, but he never ran faster than 1:46.0 EVER, despite being in many 1:44 type races which he should (as many on here keep telling us) have been capable of with his 1500m ability.

Again, I can't say Lagat has taken anything, and I don't know the man. But, as devil's advocate there are several issues that would certainly give food for thought as to the possibility he had taken something at some stage.

what do you mean why ?

instead of paying 5x as much to transport it by airplane, they sent it dirt-cheap by standard fedex overland in a journey lasting 24 - 36 hours in broiling temperatures, destroying the sample for any analytical purpose but still obliged to test it

any number, but it's expected wada learnt from this & paid top $ to transport samples since then in optimal conditions

she never admitted to epo use & CJ & conte are respectively, a steroid cheat & a convicted felon, whose testimonies were around for years but not deemed reliable enough to use in any doping or criminal case

you claiming WADA is suspect, as they were body responsible for bernie's test ?

get a clue

he tested +ve for a nasal decongestant in an over the counter cold remedy

he had a cold & took it regularly for a few days & was tested 3 times in that short period & each time the same stimulant showed up as he was still taking it for his cold

the authorities ruled it inadvertent use

they were after steroids, not vicks sinex

& retrospectively, 20y later, most of those stimulants have been removed from the list as they have been found of no athletic use - if he took those tests nowdays, he woud be declared innocent as they don't even test for them now !

go time his 1st & last laps in his 3'26 - it adds up to 1'47 with 700m of brutally hard running inbetween

if you seriously believe he had nothing better than 1'46 at the time, you know shit about this sport

Can you imagine how bad things would be today in US 1500 meter running if Lagat did not become an American citizen.

What does him running a 1 46 prove about drug use by the way? I don't see how him having a slow race over an off distance shows that he uses drugs. That is like saying Wariner is using because he has a ridiculous 400 PR but a pretty modest 200 PR relatively speaking

Lagat is a cheater. He did test positive in his “A” sample a few years back or did we forget because his American now.

guys wrote:What does him running a 1 46 prove about drug use by the way? I don't see how him having a slow race over an off distance shows that he uses drugs. That is like saying Wariner is using because he has a ridiculous 400 PR but a pretty modest 200 PR relatively speaking

exactly

ramzi, a confirmed epo cheat runs 1'44-flat in his rarely contested secondary event whereas bernie didn't crack 1'46 & some morons believe that is indicative of epo use ?!

dreop wrote:

Lagat is a cheater. He did test positive in his “A” sample a few years back or did we forget because his American now.

Have you not read the rest of the thread, any Bernard Lagat thread, or do you just like pretending you know more than everyone else?

There is a reason it takes two tests to get suspended. "A" tests come up with false positives every once in a while. I'd go into the specifics about Lagat's positive, but all you have to do is search "Lagat" and "test" for the explanation. Stop being lazy.

His 1st lap was 54.4 & last lap 53.5 which makes 1:47.9 . Which reinforces my point. Anyone who doesn't think it strange someone capable of that has failed to break 1:46 in a one off 800m knows shit about the sport. It doesn't prove anything, I just said it was an anomaly.

Ventolin said:-

"get a clue

he tested +ve for a nasal decongestant in an over the counter cold remedy

he had a cold & took it regularly for a few days & was tested 3 times in that short period & each time the same stimulant showed up as he was still taking it for his cold"

Do you always blindly believe everything the authorities tell you? I guess so.

Firstly, regardless of whether they had any impact, the US authorities breached international rules at the time which should have prevented him from competing in the Seoul games two months later. If they had nothing to hide, why not release the information rather than bury it until Dr Exum, the former USOC director for drug control from 1991 to 2000, released more than 30,000 pages of documents to Sports Illustrated in 2003.

Secondly, the World Anti-Doping Agency's chairman, Dick Pound, dismissed the "no intent" defence.

"Mr Pound has seen copies of the documents and said that in some instances there was almost "automatic forgiveness" by the US officials.

Letters written by a US Olympic Committee executive, Baaron Pittenger, were sent advising some athletes of their positive drug-test results - and at the same time told them they were being cleared."

"It's got to be pretty embarrassing to the USOC," said Mr Pound, "to have their secretary-general writing in the letter, where he advises an athlete of a positive A sample, 'I have to send you this, but we already decided this was inadvertent.' That whole process turned into a joke."

Lewis's consistent snide remarks hinting at drug use from anyone (especially if they're not american) who runs faster than he did, and his arrogant attitude to his own failed tests (see

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

)

makes the cover up all the more believable.

Ventolin said:- "go time his 1st & last laps in his 3'26 - it adds up to 1'47 with 700m of brutally hard running inbetween

if you seriously believe he had nothing better than 1'46 at the time, you know shit about this sport"

His 1st lap was 54.4 & last lap 53.5 which makes 1:47.9 . Which reinforces my point. Anyone who doesn't think it strange someone capable of that has failed to break 1:46 in a one off 800m knows shit about the sport. It doesn't prove anything, I just said it was an anomaly.

I've resent this to make it look clearer who said what, as the previous one was confusing. Just for you Ventolin, so you don't accuse me of miss-quoting you! :0)

ventolin wrote:

go time his 1st & last laps in his 3'26 - it adds up to 1'47 with 700m of brutally hard running inbetween

if you seriously believe he had nothing better than 1'46 at the time, you know shit about this sport

The fact is Ventolin, he did have nothing better than 1.46, he raced the 800 many times, in good races and I think it is fair to assume if he was capable of 1.44 he would have run it.

So we have someone running (albeit fairly random) segments of a 1500 race at very close to his 800 PB. That to me is very suspicious, that is not natural endurance.

Lagat remains a 1:46/3:26 runner, which is quite the anomaly. If you think this is normal I would suggest it is you that does not know shit about the sport!

amen. guy is doped to the kills

jingle bowels wrote:

ventolin wrote:

go time his 1st & last laps in his 3'26 - it adds up to 1'47 with 700m of brutally hard running inbetween

if you seriously believe he had nothing better than 1'46 at the time, you know shit about this sport

The fact is Ventolin, he did have nothing better than 1.46, he raced the 800 many times, in good races and I think it is fair to assume if he was capable of 1.44 he would have run it.

So we have someone running (albeit fairly random) segments of a 1500 race at very close to his 800 PB. That to me is very suspicious, that is not natural endurance.

Lagat remains a 1:46/3:26 runner, which is quite the anomaly. If you think this is normal I would suggest it is you that does not know shit about the sport!

hasn't anyone considered the fact that he seems considerably better at the 3k-5k distances than 800? i'm going to go ahead and say that the 800 isn't his second best event. let's look at his 3k and 5k times.

but why? wrote:

hasn't anyone considered the fact that he seems considerably better at the 3k-5k distances than 800? i'm going to go ahead and say that the 800 isn't his second best event. let's look at his 3k and 5k times.

Exactly he is world champ in the 1500/5000 not the 800/1500. Now I have no physiological claims for this but I would imagine that in terms of body systems used aerobic/anaerobic that the 1500 and 5000 are closer than the 800/1500. It's kinda like a 400 runner moving up to the 8. It's unbelievably difficult because of the change in the way the body works.

Now I beleive Lagat himself even said that his best event is most likely the 3000. Which makes sense.

Should his 800 PR be faster than 1:46 when you run a 3:26? Yeah most likely but remember how 10K runners who close in 52-53 can only run like a 51 sec open? Is it possible he can not go faster than 1:46 because his legs don't go much faster?

Lagat seems like an honest, humble father and definately seems like a good dude. I would hope for the sake of US distance running and humanity that he is clean, a bust of someone like him could tear apart at moral opinions.