Contemporaries of Pre How Do You Rank Him as a Runner?

Living in the Past wrote:

And by the way, I wore my first pair of Nike training shoes in 1972. The uppers were flimsy nylon, and I quickly developed plantar fasciitis. (They were blue uppers.)

1972 I wore what became Nike trainers. I don't know if they were called Nike at the time. I just saw them in a store, they looked cool to me and they were pretty light and the right price so I bought them.

There's a whole lotta hyperbole in that first article and it reads as if it were written by a kid who never saw Pre run and based it entirely on a couple of movies, some books and what his fellow HSers post on message boards.

I wasn't a big fan of Pre. I was a big Shorter and Liquori fan. Both were better. I believe his career as a runner is overrated.

The striking thing to me about his death is that I can still remember the station my mom listened to (I was a sr in HS), WNEW-AM in NY, breaking in as a bulletin about Pre's death. That in itself was pretty impressive.

Living in the Past wrote:

oldfart wrote:

Pre was a great runner.

The other two great American distance runners of the time are Ryun and Lindgren.

Over the period from 1969 through 1975 (Pre's heyday), Marty Liquori was generally the best American miler. The only reason he wasn't ranked #1 in each of those years was because he was often injured.

No American compiled a better record during Pre's heyday than Liquori. He was ranked number one in America for the mile in 1969, 1971, and 1975. (And number one in the world in 1969 and 1971.) Prefontaine was more of Liquori's generation than Ryun's, whose heyday was '64-68, or of Lindgren's who declined after the 1969 NCAA cross country championship. Liquori's career overlapped Prefontaine's, and Liquori accomplished more.

Marty's peak was 1971, at only age 22 when he was truly the best miler in the world. In 1975 he couldn't beat the top milers in the world and was headed toward the 5k in a couple of years. He was a good one but he didn't hold any American records where as Pre held the 2k, 3k, 5k and 10k at the time of his death. Marty had injury problems in Olympic years of '72 and '76. He was burned out young at Villanova and was able to regroup in Gainesville, Fla. and make a good comeback with 'smarter' training. He wrote a good training book for distance runners training on their own.

Marty was a good one! wrote:

Marty's peak was 1971, at only age 22 when he was truly the best miler in the world. In 1975 he couldn't beat the top milers in the world and was headed toward the 5k in a couple of years. He was a good one but he didn't hold any American records where as Pre held the 2k, 3k, 5k and 10k at the time of his death. Marty had injury problems in Olympic years of '72 and '76. He was burned out young at Villanova and was able to regroup in Gainesville, Fla. .

WTF? Liquori was never burned out at Nova, and he set the 5000 AR twice.

He was ranked #1 in the world at 1500 twice and ranked 3,1 and 2 in the 5k (75,77,78 respectively)

In 1975 he was also ranked 5th in the 1500, and finished 2nd to Bayi in his WR setting mile run in Jamaica.

malmo wrote:

[quote]Marty was a good one! wrote:

Marty's peak was 1971, at only age 22 when he was truly the best miler in the world. In 1975 he couldn't beat the top milers in the world and was headed toward the 5k in a couple of years. He was a good one but he didn't hold any American records where as Pre held the 2k, 3k, 5k and 10k at the time of his death. Marty had injury problems in Olympic years of '72 and '76. He was burned out young at Villanova and was able to regroup in Gainesville, Fla. .

WTF? Liquori was never burned out at Nova, and he set the 5000 AR twice.

Inside joke to "living in the past" who goes out of his way to bash Ryun and Timmons at every opportunity about burning out too young.

mcgato wrote:

And I think this is the rift between the "Pre was god" and the "Pre was a damn fine runner" groups. The former seem to come up with "facts" that just aren't true.

"One of Pre's most famous stances was against the AAU, the American track and field governing body, and its treatment of amateur athletes."

This is the biggest whopper of them all coming from the Prefontaine Exploitation Industrial Complex.

Funny, his "most famous stance" shows up nowhere in the running literature of the day. Even the track geeks at track and field news haven't been able to find any notable "stances" against the AAU. Late night drunken bullshit sessions at Kenny Moores house don't count.

Regarding Malmo's comments about Prefontaine's "most famous stance", yes, I agree totally with what you said. Being a track geek at the time, I didn't know any of that until the movies came out and presented him as this huge rebel fighting the AAU authorities. Perhaps he did have issues, but it was never in the news of the day. If it was, I never saw it, and we read anything and everything we could about track. Heck, I even subscribed to Runner's World at the time. As I mentioned in a post earlier in this thread, T & F covereage was scarce in those days except for Olympic years.

[quote]jscott wrote:

"gashed foot"

"supercharged and electric"

could take more pain then Viren

but couldn't run faster then Viren

Marty was a good one! wrote:

Inside joke to "living in the past" who goes out of his way to bash Ryun and Timmons at every opportunity about burning out too young.

Liquori never burned out, and I've often pointed to his coach, Jumbo Elliott, as a positive contrast to Timmons.

I never bashed Ryun (can you provide an example?) The only person I "bash" is Timmons for failing to allow Ryun proper recovery over the many years of training. That shortcoming on the part of the coach caused Ryun to go stale by his senior year in college, and it cost KU the NCAA outdoor championship in 1969. I've pointed to Liquori--as well as Coghlan, O'Sullivan, and Maree--as the perfect example of a long career, which is a tribute to Jumbo Elliott's coaching ability.

I guess you still are learning how to read.

Wasn't Chris Benoit the wrestler that snapped from taking too many steroids and killed his family and himself.

I'd say that is pretty "Shocking and Tragic". That probably hit home to a lot more American's than a guy getting into a car crash.

I'm not saying Pre's death was not as shocking and tragic to me, but I'm also a guy that follows running and loves the sport. But to the overall general population, his death does not rank up there as much as these other guys primarily due to the popularity of the sport.

Put it this way, how many people can list off at least a few of the greatest athletes in wrestling (even though it is fake), football, baseball, and basketball? I bet you that the average joe off the street could give you at least two to three names for each of those sports. Now how many people in the U.S. could even name a great distance runner from the US?

Having lived through both, Pre compares very favorably to Bob Kennedy. Both were far and away the best in the US at the time, they were always up near the front, but the Finns and Brits in Pre's case, and the Kenyans and Ethioians in Kennedy's case, were just a little bit better. Few people outside of running knew who they were, and Pre is ceratianly more famous now than he was then.

Careerwise I would put both Pre and Kennedy behind both Ryun and Shorter. They are the only two I really recall being fairly known by the general public. It's funny about Shorter though, I think he was more well known in the buildup to Montreal than following his win in Munich. I personally remember after Munich feeling so disapointed about Pre's race that the magnitude of Shorter's win didn't really hit me (Both races were going on at the same time). Rodgers and even Salazar were fairly well known too, but Boston and New York didn't quite yet have the worldwide competition they have today (there was not as much money in it then so alot of the best international competition still mostly ran track only).

I am a Pre contemporary; we graduated from high school the same year. When we were in HS, I learned of him from Track & Field News, and I remember him breaking the 2-mile record. As a track junkie, I followed his career closely. During that career, I considered him to be a very good, not-quite-great runner. Among the Americans, Shorter, Liquori, and Wottle eclipsed him, and he was nowhere near the prodigy that Ryun had been. And, my opinion is that they could have run the '72 Olympics 5,000m 10 times and Viren would probably have won all 10. That is not meant to diminish Pre's accomplishments; he was fiercely competitive and clearly the dominant American at 2,000 - 5,000 meters, but he never proved himself against the world's best. Again, very good, but not quite great. His death was a shock to us track & field fans, but our sport is a minor sport, so, in some ways, it's surprising that his death even made #12 on the list.

I think that the legend of Pre is best explained by a combination of charisma, performance, and post-mortem marketing.

This may be proof positive that Pre was America's greatest runner of all time. Show me proof of another runner that has a girl as hot as this one holding the finishing "tape"...

stay the coarse wrote:

[quote]pre841 wrote:

http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-15576942.jpg?size=67&uid=%7B7EF7E33F-2DB2-4786-8628-AEE303675B71%7D

Am I seeing things, or can you see the finish line girls' breast in the corbis picture?

Oh, and as far as Pre goes, the very existence of this thread (and my post) is a microcosm of our age.

Pre's running was really, really good. His ability to transcend the sport of running is legendary.

I still, to this day, can carry on a conversation about running with Joe Bagodonuts and am always amazed that 9 times out of 10 they will mention that Pre guy.

It wasn't his running or the choices he made in his life that continues to inspire; it was his no BS approach and results that Americans, runners or not, embrace.

Point taken.

I agree that the two years in difference in age is very significant at that point of development.

However the only time we know for certain when an athlete had peaked is when they have retired.

We look at young contemporary 5K runners of the last few years ie Broe, Goucher, Cragg, Fam, at around 13.10 and Tegenkamp at 13.04 and we expect or expected them to improve with maturity and run faster. This is by no means a given. For a Western athlete to give this type of performance training has to proceed almost perfectly without interruption caused by injury or illness. They have to be in the right race with the correct pace and favorable weather conditions and the opportunities only occur once or twice per season.

Pre to have run considerably faster would have needed to spend more time in Europe and have peaked for the European season. This may have left him more vulnerable on the home front and he may or may not have made the transition. Either way it is difficult to believe that he could have beaten Viren or have won a medal in Montreal given that the race was loaded with talented athletes with better performances at 5k and possessing faster under distance speed.

malmo wrote:

mcgato wrote:

And I think this is the rift between the "Pre was god" and the "Pre was a damn fine runner" groups. The former seem to come up with "facts" that just aren't true.

"One of Pre's most famous stances was against the AAU, the American track and field governing body, and its treatment of amateur athletes."

This is the biggest whopper of them all coming from the Prefontaine Exploitation Industrial Complex.

Funny, his "most famous stance" shows up nowhere in the running literature of the day. Even the track geeks at track and field news haven't been able to find any notable "stances" against the AAU. Late night drunken bullshit sessions at Kenny Moores house don't count.

There are quotes from T&F News where Prefontaine takes a stance against the AAU Malmo. I choose to be inspired by a runner who didn't worry about the dew point and demand fresh bagels and Evian at every road race he competed in like yourself. Blow any more of the country's bail out money lately?

Prefontaine's comments

[1974 excerpt from T&F News] "I'm not going to run in the AAU championships." Thus Steve Prefontaine threw down the gauntlet to the AAU and its international competition moratorium.

"I'm going to compete all through their moratorium," continued Pre, "and if they want to take me to court, that's fine with me. I can take them for all they're worth.

"What does it prove running the AAU meet? The AAU doesn't care about the athletes; why should I care about them? I'll find meets to run in Europe."

(http://www.europa.com/~bence/pre/au.htm)

Pre's defiance was mostly talk. It was Frank Shorter who forced change when he acknowledged that he had received money under the table. That was a courageous move, since he risked a life-time ban. He challenged the hypocritical stance of the AAU that track was still an amateur sport. As I recall, the first step on the way to full pro status for athletes was the creation of a trust fund system that would hold an athlete's earnings until he retired. That allowed the hypocrisy of the amateur system to survive a while longer. Frank Shorter was the guy who drove the change, but he was never as full of bluster like Prefontaine.

Living in the Past wrote:

he was never as full of bluster like Prefontaine.

...he was never full of bluster like Prefontaine

malmo wrote:

"One of Pre's most famous stances was against the AAU, the American track and field governing body, and its treatment of amateur athletes."

This is the biggest whopper of them all coming from the Prefontaine Exploitation Industrial Complex.

Funny, his "most famous stance" shows up nowhere in the running literature of the day. Even the track geeks at track and field news haven't been able to find any notable "stances" against the AAU. Late night drunken bullshit sessions at Kenny Moores house don't count.

A couple of fragments from my memory which may have given the filmmakers license to enhance the facts:

1. I remember reading an article once about how Steve was living in a trailer as a post-collegiate and was on food stamps, and reading further about the contrast with the lifestyles of similar runners in Europe. Some of the scenes from the Prefontaine movie looks like they came from someone who read the same article.

2. In the aftermath of the fatal crash, I read about how the last words between Steve and Frank Shorter mentioned something about how "they were going to deal with the AAU" just as Steve dropped Frank off and set off on his fateful drive.

Malmo, you were living within the sport in a way that this no-talent college student dreamed of doing at the same time, and I'm sure you know things that I don't know from the inside. But I recall these two things pretty vividly, and the movie didn't seem like a gross distortion from my recollection of the events as they were reported at the time.

Frank became a strong thorn in the side of the AAU after Pre's death. That was when he made the commercial for ,I believe, Hilton Hotels and came out about the under the table money. With his Hotel commercial he basically spit in the face of the AAU and challenged them to keep him from running in the 1976 Olympics. He told them he would gladly see them in court.