Should HS Track Be a No-Cut Sport ?

One of the things I love about HS track/XC is that you have the chance for kids to work hard and really improve themselves. As for the track numbers, I've found that once you get past 60-70 athletes (per gender), then your ability to coach begins to decline. I've always had a policy that if a kid can complete the workouts, they can be on the team. If I have kids that are dogging/dropping out from the workouts, then I tell them they either need to step it up or find something else to do. When I did that, I found out the kid's character. Some stepped it up, while others decided they would rather not push themselves and quit the team.

One coach in our area had 110-120 kids/gender coming each day. When their numbers didn't slim down, they basically created a JV practice for the sprinters/skill events (distance runners still all practiced together). He took the top half of the team and had them practice right after school. At the end of the varsity practice, the JV kids would come and warm up, then work with the coaches. It took a ton of dedication from the coaches, but it let all of the kids participate and gave the top athletes enough coaching time.

Overall, I'm not in favor of cutting kids. However, kids need to be honest with themselves and ask themselves why they are really there. If it is because they want to work hard, improve themselves, and support the team, then keep them.

Boston29 wrote:

I have more of a problem with kids who run 14-15 min 3200's thus dragging on a meet. Work their tale of in practice, put them in the 800 or 1600 and give the rest of us a chance to go home (particularly a mid-week meet).

Do those extra few minutes really put that much of a cramp into your life? God forbid that these kids should run 3 or 4 minutes longer than you deem necessary. Pompous ass.

Kiko wrote:

Thank you for your response.

You're welcome.

greenliner wrote:

We Cut misses the point. What is really going on is that he has not figured out how to manage his team when it is larger than he might like. Instead, I see him deciding to simply get rid of the immediate lesser talents (who later might blossom if they are actually coached). Someone mentioned York, which of course I know a lot about. Somehow, they manage 100+ kids every season without problem- but it takes assistants to do it right. So, We Cut, get some assistants to help you out. But I would recommend you let those who wish to participate do just that.

Greenliner - I always enjoy your posts here, and the insight into the York program.

Did you read what I wrote? We cut juniors and seniors, not the younger kids. There is no development going on with a 13 foot long jumping senior male who refuses to work hard and drags their more talented friends down with them. No one is going to convince me that they are going to all of a sudden blossom in the 8 weeks that I have them into a 22 footer with a great attitude.

I can manage larger teams just fine, because I've done it in the past. Our xc teams do it just fine, and unlike York, we do it without assistants and managers. There is a trade off when you have a larger team, and that is your top athletes receive less attention. That is an indisputable fact. The less athletes on the team, the more attention the athletes will get. Track at the HS level is a sport where you have to teach skills. This is no different than my classroom. When I have classes over 35 kids, it's very difficult and time consuming to go desk to desk to help individually.

I see nothing wrong with getting rid of some of these kids from the outset. I'm not talking about cutting kids who are in middle school or 9th or 10th grade. I'm talking about cutting seniors and juniors who are clearly not interested in being part of a team, and who show no effort and no indication that there will ever be effort.

greenliner wrote:

We Cut, get some assistants to help you out.

Forgot to add...our school district has a policy in place as a level of protection for lawsuits, that every coach, whether volunteer or paid, must be a school district employee. We are a one high school district, with three middle schools, and maybe 8 elementary schools. There just aren't that many people begging me to put them on our staff. We do the best we can with what we have.

WE CUT wrote:

I'm talking about cutting seniors and juniors who are clearly not interested in being part of a team, and who show no effort and no indication that there will ever be effort.

I completely understand this situation as I have had these people on my teams, too. However, I am not allowed to make cuts. So my solution was to have a "conditioning test" on the first day of practice.

Everyone (these are girls) is required to run 1 Mile in 11 minutes, do 20 pushups in 1 minute, and do 20 situps in 1 minute. All are informed of this requirement at our sign-up meeting 3 weeks before the first practice. The unmotivated typically decide against being on the team.

Those who "fail" the conditioning test are not cut, but put into a special group to work on whatever they need to pass the test. No one is allowed to work with an event group (LJ, sprints, etc.) until they pass the test. After a few days, anyone who still has not passed the test usually decides to quit the team.

If you want to be sprinter 28.5 seconds for boys, for girls 33.5. Distance runners have to run something like 6:15 mile and 7:30, 2:52 800 and 3:30.

Most of the cuts are made in the sprints. We have 4 coaches, 3 of them do distance, and I do the sprints, jumps and hurdles. One coach helps me a great deal on the days that the distance runners are off the track.

I love having a lot of kids but at a certain point its just overwhelming. Dealing with Long Jump, Triple Jump, High Jump, Blocks, handoffs, high hurdles, low hurdles, short sprinters and long sprinters is difficult, when you have 110 kids its even harder.

most of the people on this board would say dont have cuts. but most people on here are or were distance runners. Distance running is easy to manage. The technical events are not as easy and thats why we cut.

There should be no cuts unless absolutely necessary b/c of size/budget limitations. Track and field is a terrific outlet for many kids, and can lead to a life-long love of running. Cutting a kid should be avoided at all costs.

kcb wrote:

There should be no cuts unless absolutely necessary b/c of size/budget limitations....Cutting a kid should be avoided at all costs.

You contradicted yourself.

Diabetes is rather expensive too... better not to cut the kid... although I love the high and might approach to things here with KIDS... let just test them when they're 8 and if the cant come with in +/- 2% of Sebastian Coe's marks at x, y and z then give them a couch and insulin, because lets face it that's where based on your POV the line should be drawn... its a damn dual meet, if that kid busted his ass and came to xx% of the practices... he has the intrinsic right to be on the track at a dual meet.. Troll 0/10

I don't think that they cut in football, except in the extremely large schools. The varsity has 20-50 kids, and the rest play JV.

You can only call "troll" if you are the first or second responder. After four pages of responses the topic is substantiated.

As the OP I asked the question because I think track must make every effort to become a better spectator sport. As it is track has become a sport of last resort. There are a few talented and dedicated athletes on every team but the majority are there for the safety of a no-cut sport. If coaches treated membership as a priviledge they'd see kids working harder in and out of season to keep their spots.

Not everyone is going to become Coe but you have to admit that a 2:53/800 is not a serious effort.

Boring wrote:

You can only call "troll" if you are the first or second responder. After four pages of responses the topic is substantiated.

As the OP I asked the question because I think track must make every effort to become a better spectator sport. As it is track has become a sport of last resort. There are a few talented and dedicated athletes on every team but the majority are there for the safety of a no-cut sport. If coaches treated membership as a priviledge they'd see kids working harder in and out of season to keep their spots.

Not everyone is going to become Coe but you have to admit that a 2:53/800 is not a serious effort.

Bullfeathers.

I've coached HS track for over 30 years. Slow kids in high school track meets aren't making track a poor spectator sport. I haven't been to too many high school meets that attract crowds of people just to watch the meet, but there are lots of parents and friends there to watch people they know.

To help support my point, we used to have a "varsity only" City championship meet for the three schools in our city that drew a very slim, lackluster crowd which didn't have much atmosphere at all. We decided to make it a JV/varsity meet...guess what, those JV kids all have family and friends that come to watch...there was a significantly larger crowd, and a more exciting atmosphere for the meet than it had been when just the "stars" were allowed to run.

I could hardly break 3 min. in the 800 when I first came out to track my freshman year. Yes I'm a guy. A few seasons later in cross country, I was running in the mid-17's and helped my team secure a place on the victory stand at state. Glad my coach didn't cut me.

what we also cut forgot to mention is that a lot of the reason we have cut times is for motivation. we found many of the kids were out for the wrong reason a few years ago, when we had 216 kids on the team. many of them refused to put in the work. with the cuts, more of the kids want to work hard. and i think only 18 out of 200 who tried out were cut this year even though we made the cutoff times considerably faster than a year ago. as you could see from the 6:15/2:52 and 7:30/3:30, the times are slow enough that any kid who ran for two-three weeks entering the season can make the distance squad; they are not allowed to sprint if they qualify in those events.

we also lose fewer kids over the season; in the past we would lose 30-40 kids over the course of the season for disinterest or failure to attend practice, but now that number is more like four or five because the kids have a feeling of accomplishment.

Boring wrote:

You can only call "troll" if you are the first or second responder. After four pages of responses the topic is substantiated.

As the OP I asked the question because I think track must make every effort to become a better spectator sport. As it is track has become a sport of last resort. There are a few talented and dedicated athletes on every team but the majority are there for the safety of a no-cut sport. If coaches treated membership as a priviledge they'd see kids working harder in and out of season to keep their spots.

Not everyone is going to become Coe but you have to admit that a 2:53/800 is not a serious effort.

Mr. 2:53 is just as likely to have a father, mother, uncle and crazy grandparent(s) who are likely to come sit through a DUAL MEET for 3-4 hours just because Mr. 2:53 is on the team... As for sprints it takes around a minute to 2 (in the 400) per heat at a good school 8 kids a heat thats 120 kids in the 30mins in the 400... so as I was saying if coaches are on the ball meets can finish by sundown... As for your membership idea, track is an individual sport, if some wants it they tend to step up and perform... This isnt XC there is no "keep your spot", because the team aspect on exists if you have a couple of really good individuals... I think you're confusing track and cross-country... Also if you're a coach and aren't willing to coach every kid who comes to practice 9x% of the time, then please do everyone a favor and quit because Im sure some else will step up and do a better job for the stupid $1000 dollar the school is paying you.

2:53/800 for someone with little base and 2months training is alright because it does little to show the kids athletic potential... Ive seem a kid run 2:4x PR as an 8th grader, run sub-2:00 the next year... By your estimations he should have been cut in 8th grade instead of having the experience... I think the kid went on to set a school record at his high school as a senior too (3000+ student HS)... The point is that it's your job as a coach to train them, help them set goals and show them how to get there.

Summary:

Don't coach if you can't coach.

Summary: Don't Bring your 2:53 to an Elementary School track meet. http://eliteyouth.com/rf2008/rf2008.asp?DCODE=BG&ECode=800

The kids who are really good, really don't need the coach to hold their hand during practice. It only takes a few minutes to discuss their workouts with them and find out how the feel that particular day. They already know the more technical aspects of training/racing. This frees up a lot of time to spend with the novices, motivating them and helping them to improve.