Tempo runs are overated?

Jack in box wrote:

No I still think they are useless. But everybody started citing the training of the top ten milers all time. The fact that so many young runners try to base their training off of these guys is another even bigger problem. But anyway, of course elites will do everything and anything. But just because elg does hurdle drills doesn't mean we all should. Nick Symmonds swims twice a week. Are we all putting are selves at a disadvantage by not swimming? Probably not he's just doing a lot of extra credit to give himself a mental edge. Krummenacker used to do strides holding his breath!!! I mean elite runners will do anything. Stember hit a plateau and actually hired a sprinting coach-the speed and power didn't do him much good.

Good point.

We could use this post as a springboard to discuss individualization of training.

Every elite athlete that was cited does the training that they believe is most beneficial for them individually.

Symmonds may have no use for hurdle drills and El G may have had no use for swimming, but for some reason or another they each believe/d that their own methods were beneficial.

Whether or not they actually are beneficial is another matter... but it's hard to argue in the face of their success.

So, plyos and such may have been of little use to you in particular, but to others (such as myself), they were/are a missing ingredient.

Say what you want about them being useless... if you really experienced little benefit from them, then they were indeed useless for you.

I, on the other hand, experienced HUGE benefits from incorporating them into my routine, so for me I'd have to say that plyos and drills are paramount.

To each his/her own.

going back to the original intent of the thread

I hope tempo runs aren't overrated because that is about the only workout I can do these past weeks because the track is covered in snow.

I think this post nails it. Everyone is different. One person may see a huge jump running tempos (I did), another may not. While one athlete does high mileage another just gets hurt. A good coach knows what the individual can handle and will experiment. If there are no gains then indeed it is "useless" to that individual.

Tempos for youth is very difficult and in high school with so many races it is almost impossible to get in proper training.

Runningart2004 wrote:

There are no important workouts....only important training. Don't overthink it. Tempo runs are overrated for those who obsess over them at the expense of other training.

The ability to maintain a fast pace means nothing without actual leg speed. All that means is that you'll be able to sustain a SLOW fast pace instead of a faster fast pace. There has been a shift over the last decade or two from intervals intervals intervals to tempo tempo tempo.

Proper trainining is a combination of speed (50s, 100s, total rest also strength/power developed through weight training, plyos and drills), endurance (intervals, tempo runs and other sustained hard runs), and stamina (long runs, total overall mileage). They are ALL equally important to build a foundation for a great runner. From this foundation you can then implement specific training for your specific race.

Alan

that is all that needed to be said on this thread.

Fair enough.

Some Canadian wrote:

I wasn't necessarily talking about running;

As regards tempo runs how fast should you be able to do a solo tempo run in relation to what you expect to do in a race with competition? I know there are alot of possible factors like weather and course difficulty but i just want a rough guide. Say for instance somebody wants to run 5miles in a race under 30mins should they be able to run sub33 on a tempo run?

Are you asking me? I'll give you a rough guide, but it's my rough guide -- I don't speak for anyone else: somewhere between 20 minutes at 15K pace, up to 1 hour at 30K pace.If you train by HR, longer (1 hour) tempo runs might be 80-83% HRmax, while shorter runs (20 minutes) might be around 85-88% HRmax.I always think of "tempo" as a synonym for "rhythm". Find a good rhythm and stay there.

clueless runner wrote:

As regards tempo runs how fast should you be able to do a solo tempo run in relation to what you expect to do in a race with competition? I know there are alot of possible factors like weather and course difficulty but i just want a rough guide. Say for instance somebody wants to run 5miles in a race under 30mins should they be able to run sub33 on a tempo run?

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

I like both fartleks

One cannot "do" fartleks as implied.

It depends, I think they are very important in pre-season training up to about a month into season. After that, it starts to lose its whole purpose.

Holmer wrote:

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

I like both fartleks

One cannot "do" fartleks as implied.

I don't really care. I bet 100% of the posters who read what I wrote understood it, and 99% didn't care. The purpose of a language is to functionally convey information, and if a phrase successfully does that then there is little point in correcting it, especially when it is a word as abstract as "fartlek". I mean, damn, it's not like I said fartleks are more better then tempos.

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

Holmer wrote:

One cannot "do" fartleks as implied.

I don't really care. I bet 100% of the posters who read what I wrote understood it, and 99% didn't care. The purpose of a language is to functionally convey information, and if a phrase successfully does that then there is little point in correcting it, especially when it is a word as abstract as "fartlek". I mean, damn, it's not like I said fartleks are more better then tempos.

You may as well have.

fartleks are "more better" though...

In swedish, fartlek=speedplay

However, in English, it has taken on a different meaning. A run in which you change up the pace as it feels natural is known as A fartlek. This happens to many words that are borrowed from other languages. It's natural. Deal with it.

It isn't that tempo runs don't work, but the time period of which they do work is limited. One paper I have is a meta analysis of all prior published work on tempo training, with the conclusion being that tempo runs work primarily for lesser trained athletes and for approximately 10 weeks. After this point you meet (and pass) the point of diminishing returns, and you need to move to faster work to continue to improve (unless you are training specifically for a marathon).

If you are a high level athlete coming off a 1-2 month annual break, or you are a lesser athlete just running mileage and not doing any workouts, tempo runs will give you improvement for 2-3 months. Kenyans do well with just progression type runs for roughly this time period. Also note that Renato's "fundamental period" lasts for the same time period.

But don't expect the performance gains to continue. Keep in mind that workouts like Billat's vVO2 stuff also work to improve lactate threshold, and we move from longish intervals like 2000's with 3 minute rest (straight from Geb's training logs BTW) to 30-30 later in the season. You can also get lactate threshold improvement from VO2max intervals, and even 400's if the rest is kept short enough. As you go through the season, you want to get to the point where lactate production is minimized at or just below race pace, and this is not accomplished by running "workouts" significantly slower.

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

In swedish, fartlek=speedplay

However, in English, it has taken on a different meaning.

maybe by those who haven't a clue what they are talking about.

Continue to sound like a tool with your "fartleks".

So, a little help here, for those who are willing to offer it. I'm 30, was a 400M (:48) college runner just got back into running and now do 5k, 5 mile, 10k stuff. Its really fun, but like a totally different sport than sprinting. It sounds like a tempo run would be the thing for me. I can't seem to break 19 minutes in the 5k. My training looks like this (30 miles per week)

Sunday - long run 8-9 miles

Monday - Easy 4 miles

Tuesday - track workout (3x1600 OR 6 x 800 stuff)

Wednesday - easy 4 miles

Friday - 6 to 8 (sometimes fartlek)

Saturday off

Any suggestions?

Continue to sound like a tool needlessly correcting people.

Add a mile to every day and then 2-3 to your long run. The extra mileage will add the volume you need for strength & endurance.

for a sprinter this is hard, but since you are a roadie now doing it for fun this will help yo break that 19 min!

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

In swedish, fartlek=speedplay

However, in English, it has taken on a different meaning. A run in which you change up the pace as it feels natural is known as A fartlek. This happens to many words that are borrowed from other languages. It's natural. Deal with it.

Likely a generational thing. To someone who grew up running fartlek workouts, it sound awkward to put the "a" in front of the word or to pluralize it.