Question for running fast at age 47?

I agree 16x. I found it hard to keep my speed up. I now find it impossible to train or even run at a reasonable pace. I wish that I had paid more attention to those two points. Also, one must realize that 55 is not old. Think young!

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the comments. It's really nice to hear from other veteran runners.

I love my running. I love my work and family too but running is still the highlight of any day.

I've known what I should do and your comments confirm it and hopefully will provide me the motivation to get it done. The plan is to incorporate some striders or 100s into my weekly routine. For example, either before or after 2-3 of my runs I will do 8-10 x 100, preferably on a slight incline.

I agree, we gotta throw in some quick stuff like strides or short, full-recovery reps.

Trying to do strides before a run when I'm not warmed up would spell trouble for me. A lot of people talk of doing them after the run but I just throw 'em in mid-run after two miles warmup. I like to do 10 or 12 x :20-:30, starting slower and the last half dozen at "top" speed, with a few drills (butt kicks, high knees) after the first couple strides. Similar routine with fewer strides on the way to the track or preceding a tempo run.

I like to throw strides in the middle of an easy run to, for me often just running feels monotonous (ADD behavior I guess).

Orville, runners have to remember that running is a muscular-skeletal activity, not just a cardio, and you have to wake up the muscle fibers and overall body form by throwing in some very quick stuff with full recoveries at least weekly. This is where I think stretching helps keep the lower muscles moving through a full range of motion. Older men who don't stretch and do long running all the time get those tight-butt/hamstring shuffly strides and lose their speed.

16x wrote: This is where I think stretching helps keep the lower muscles moving through a full range of motion. Older men who don't stretch and do long running all the time get those tight-butt/hamstring shuffly strides and lose their speed.

Heh, I'm not yet quite forty, stretch regularly, and try to do my share of the quick stuff, and I still fight the tight-ass-ham-hip shuffle.

Actually I've suddenly got more looseness (stride opening up noticeably) and speed (nearly all runs around :30/mile faster than a couple weeks ago) with the onset of warm sunny weather here in NYC. I seem to be even more seasonal than previously thought. Wonder if others experience similar.

Not holding my breath that the sun'll have much impact on my other ADD behavior though.

16x wrote: Older men who don't stretch and do long running all the time get those tight-butt/hamstring shuffly strides and lose their speed.

Like anything, I don't think this rule necessarily applies to everyone. I'm "older," the bulk of my running is quite slow (7:30-8:00 on easy runs on my own, with a lot of 9:30-10:00 miles with my wife or son). I haven't run anything at 5k pace or faster since last fall, yet my top end speed hasn't really suffered.

When I was injured for 5 months last fall and not running very much, my aerobic fitness died, but I could still crank out fairly good 100s or 200s on the track (meaning no slower than I was capable during racing season last summer). Mind you, while I could crank out 200s at 800 pace or faster, I would have had trouble carrying that pace for 800 m because of eroded aerobic fitness.

I've been injury free and training well for 2+ months again, and the only time I'll run "fast" is in 3-4 strides toward the end of my warmup before faster workouts or races (which have been infrequent during this time). My "speed" hasn't changed (no better, no worse), but I am able to race better because my aerobic strength is nearly back.

I don't doubt that some people need to "stay in touch" with their speed, so to speak, but I don't think it's necessary for all older runners.

Pete:

I hear you, but physiologically what you have just said doesn't make sense.

If the body has 3 energy systems (ATP-PC) used in sprint work, and type IIa (intermmediate which uses both aerobic and anaerobic to create energy) and type IIb (using only anaerobic to create energy)then there is no physiologically way that you are activating type IIb running 7:30-8:00 pace, or even 5k pace. These can only be activated by moving for 10-20 seconds full speed.

So, you aren't touching them when you train at the paces you have described, and yes, they will not be conditioned to respond, or perhaps they have never been conditioned.

Sorry, pet peeve, long distance runners telling me that 5:20 pace is speed work. No it isn't. For some people 4:20 pace isn't speed work. Speed is not using your aerobic system - it is using strictly the ATP-PC system. When you can make this system more effective, you can use it to respond on demand. This is what made Ovett and Coe super middle distance runners, practicing this system, all the while, both of them probably did and could have run 28 minutes for 10k just about any day of the week.

So, if you ain't working them, they aren't working - and you aren't calling upon them when you race. If you never call upon this system when you race, then you aren't running to your full ability (in terms of PR's). But I know, you cannot achieve this at 7 something per mile pace - NOT Possible.

Regards, 16x

This older man can not run 7 minute mile pace for any distance, even a short one, at the present time. Some day maybe?? but not for the last couple of years. I was unable to use it so I lost it.

How about some heavy-duty weight training to work those fast-twitch fibers during periods when you are not doing sprint work?

Personally, I do 3 sessions a week year-around with 2 of them not changing much- a sprint session at 90-95% effort,(done on hills of various grades in winter), and a tempo run or long reps at around 10k-20k pace.

The other session depends on the time of year. During dead of winter it's a longer progression run, toward the end of winter reps at 3k/5k pace, in spring reps at 800/1500.

I'm 46 and working both ends of the spectrum year-around seems to allow me to get in race shape more quickly and with less aches and pains.

16x wrote:If you never call upon this system when you race, then you aren't running to your full ability (in terms of PR's).

16x,

I'm not suggesting NEVER training that particular system. I just don't believe it's necessary to train the "fastest" of the FT fibres on a regular basis to be at your best for distance running. Personally, I don't need to do some form of "speed" work every week of the year to race near my best at some point during the year. If I expect to get close to near-PR shape, there will have to have been some very fast running, but I suggest the amount of very fast running (fast 100s, 150s, 200s etc) can be a very, very low proportion of the overall training load, and doesn't need tp be present throughout the year. Especially in a runner with more FT fibres than the average distance runner.

There's no ONE approach that will work best for everyone. Some people NEED to run fast very frequently to be able to race quickly some of the time (ST types). I think others (FT folks) don't.

I will have to disagree with you again Pete.

As far as I can tell, even with JD programs, a person is never more than a few weeks outside of at least SOME form of sprint training, Even with JD plans, a person is doing strides 3-4 times a week after 6 weeks of base training, in otherwords, "keeping in touch" with the Type IIa and IIb fibers by striding at 95-97%, not allowing them to completely get untrained. Another form you will see in Lydiard or Igloi plans is a hill training component because the use of hills is a great way to recruit high level output from the energy system and muscle - again, some ATP-PC activity.

I've viewed Owen Anderson plans for master athletes includes some form of ATP-PC training year round. Of course, it is not the focus for long long distance training, and it not the focus year round, but there is some element of it in every phase of a training plan.

It is much more difficult to retrain a forgotten ATP=PC system than it is an aerobic capacity system. I imagine this is why older athletes continue to gravitate up in distance as they age, while some athletes like SoCalPete and Tony Young recapture much of what was there in their 20's by staying close to the track.

16x wrote:(1) I've viewed Owen Anderson plans for master athletes includes some form of ATP-PC training year round.

(2) It is much more difficult to retrain a forgotten ATP=PC system than it is an aerobic capacity system. I imagine this is why older athletes continue to gravitate up in distance as they age, ...

(1) Ahh, I see where you're coming from now. Owen Anderson, eh? Hmmmm..... say no more.

(2) And yet, as I age (will be 42 in 7 or 8 weeks), I am actually gravitating DOWN in distance. And I don't "keep in touch with my speed" except a little bit during a period maybe a couple of months before the faster, shorter races. Granted, my background in the sport is different than many masters runners - I've run all my life, but didn't compete much as a youngster.

We're at philosophically opposite ends of the spectrum on this subject, 16x, and I know neither of us will change our minds. At least YOU won't. You're stubborn. ;-) (The winky means I'm kidding, just to be clear)

Igloi used different leg actions (swing and speed) to develop the legs and body. In 20 months with him, I never ran a hill except in a race but we were very strong. We never ran on the road either. I feel that that was a mistake for marathoners. Lots of 100s developed our speed and there were occassions when we were instructed to run one 150, 220 or even 440 all out after a full two or three hour workout. They couldn't have been very fast.

I am going to jump in on Pete's side of this discussion. To some degree I am a former sprinter(of modest talent - 23sec 220) masquerading as a distance runner in my old age. While aerobic training may not provide specific training for FT fibers, they do get some training effect from basic aerobic and strength training. Periodic Achilles issues have kept me away from speedwork for months or years at a stretch. Nonetheless, I have found that with minimal stride work I can get back to decent 100/200 speed very quickly. As Pete mentions, natural untrained FT/ST ratios probably have significant influence on the amount of work and ease with which top end speed can be recaptured or maintained.

Yes of course we are opposites Pete - that's why I love the back and forth stuff with ya!

Thanks for the clarification Orville on the Iglio and hill training.

This I know....running has a dynamic component to it, if you want to excel in it, you need to tap that dynamic element of it. There is running, and then there is dynamic and powerful running - you know the kind that really pushes past thinking that what we are doing is merely cardio and pulmonary - it is the training of the stride efficiency and all fibers for most effective efficiency. I would say the European coaches were best at capturing this component, even the Russian women became so dominate in the middle distances - yes they probably used some enhancement, but you can see how dynamically and powerful they run compared to the rest of the world. Traditionally the E. Europeans and Russians spent a great deal of time with plyometrics and dynamic training, producing very effective output with those IIa and IIb fibers at an early age.

African runners do not score higher in aerobic capacity; tests where they score 24-34 percent higher is in their ability to run very effectively using their IIa fibers - the ones you train when you are pushing close to breaking point, or running uphill, or surging constantly etc. I suppose they naturally train that way.

So, what does this mean when you are a masters runner? Dynamic running still needs to be present, more if you are doing track or 5k's, less if you are running very long....and what is the matter with Owen Anderson? He's not John Bigham!

16x wrote: what is the matter with Owen Anderson?

The admittedly limited reading I've done of his work suggests to me that he tends to take limited data with a small number of subjects observed over a short period of time, and extrapolates conclusions that are supposed to be appropriate for long term development. The human body is far to complex to try to isolate single variables that determine performance. I think his conclusions tend to take a far too narrow view of his data. In short, I think his science (what I've read of it) is faulty.

Tomorrow during the warmup for my workout at the track, I think I will try one strong 200 to see where I stand. Back in February when I was in the deepest depths of despair from a lengthy quad problem, I did a "fitness test" where I ran a 200 at 90-95% effort during my warmup, then ran some aerobic work (maybe 6:45 pace) to see what my heart rate was doing (it was awful), then ran a strong 100 and 600 TT to finish off. I was able to peel off a 29.5 fairly comfortably, and a 14.2 100, but the 600 TT was pretty sucky (~ 1:41). I "raced" a 1500 a couple weeks later and was 15s off last summer's time. So my basic wheels (for me) were still there, but my aerobic fitness was way off (due to the extended period of low mileage and very little faster running of any kind). And my racing obviously suffered.

Now I've been back at decent training (base work with 3 races) for ~ 8-9 weeks. I'm certain I could run a much stronger 600 or 1500 today (and in fact my recent 5k and 10k times have been fairly close to PRs), but I'll be damned if I could go a whole lot faster (at 90-95%) for 200. Maybe a little faster, though. I'll try it and see.

But what will govern my race performances, given I'll race distances this summer from 1500 (maybe a couple of 800s too) to the half marathon? I think in my case the aerobic component is by far the most important element. I could work on 200 speed all the time and maybe get to the point where I could run 28s at that effort, but if my aerobic strength were still lacking, I wouldn't be able to do anything with that speed, unless I started racing 200s and maybe 400s.

When you stop running for injury reasons or whatever, the muscle fibers actually begin their deconditioning at around 72 hours. Your aerobic base takes much longer before it begins to decondition. It is quite likely that you can hit 29 in a 200 without training, but at what cost? The lactic build up on a deconditioned system would be very great. So, it might be that you were blaming your aerobic system for something that was closer to a deconditioning of your fast twitch muscle fibers - which don't contain the amount of mitochondria that the slow ones contain.

So, it is actually rare to find someone who is training for 800 to 1/2 marathon because let's face it - they really aren't the same animal when it comes to training programs... and if you were to be very specific and say "I'm training for 10k-1/2 marathon - or "I'm training for 800-1500" the two programs really would not resemble each other. But if you are going to throw them all into the mix, then yes, you will have to train long distances to be able to handle the demands of a fast 1/2 marathon, because training your anaerobic system with 25% of your mileage really isn't going to translate into a good 13 miler - they aren't the same energy systems. So, your 1/2 marathon time will flourish, but you will be no where close to your max potential in the 800-1500, but you can't have it all can you? maybe you can!

I use to do similar stuff - except I went the opposite way, I trained for 1500-3k and then would race up and even though I did fine, no way my 10k-1/2m were even close to the level that my middle distance running was. In fact, I would refer to a nomogram and according to my 3k time, I should have been able to run a 2:45 marathon, but I could only run a 1:22 1/2, so that wasn't happening! My 5k times were even falling away from my 1500 times.

you will do great, good to see you are healthy.

pendejo wrote:

Actually I've suddenly got more looseness (stride opening up noticeably) and speed (nearly all runs around :30/mile faster than a couple weeks ago) with the onset of warm sunny weather here in NYC. I seem to be even more seasonal than previously thought. Wonder if others experience similar.

Not holding my breath that the sun'll have much impact on my other ADD behavior though.

my husband claims the same thing. suffers with the tight hips/hams/ass thing all winter, then it gets warm and he says it goes away! it's hard to get him to stretch.

16x wrote:... your 1/2 marathon time will flourish, but you will be no where close to your max potential in the 800-1500, but you can't have it all can you? maybe you can!

I think you can! Perhaps not an elite runner, who needs to specialize, but a schlep like me can, and did. Last year I ran my 800 PR in mid-August (and PR'd at 1500 right after), and then PR'd at the half marathon in mid-September, without changing the character of my training.

Now I'm quite inexperienced at 800 (I've raced three, all last summer), but depending on which scale you use it's either my best time (according to most scales, at 2:04.8) or my second best time (second to my half marathon time, at 1:14:18 - I forget which scale that was from, either IAAF or Mercier tables).

With the type of training I did last year, the character of which was more or less the same from April to September, I ran a 5k road PR in April, 10k road PR in May, mile and 3000 PRs in June/July, 800 and 1500 PRs in August, and HM in September. All with very little pure speed work. In general, my interval sessions were long intervals.

The only true speed work I ever did last year was maybe 4 or 5 times I ran a light speed session a couple of days before key races. That session was 3 x 200 w/400j @ ~ 800 pace + 3 x 100 W/700j @ ~ 400 pace. That would be the only times all year I ran anything approaching 400-800 pace. I know my times aren't world beaters, but they were good for me, at my age, and I raced consistently at a high level (for me) for a very long race season. With nearly zero effort to "stay in touch with my speed."

So there! :-)