The fact that they didnt take reginal place into highest consideration like it says. Doing it correctly they take all the teams who finished third in thier region with points. than the 4th place teams with points - some push in a third place team (like princton pushing in nova) and than 5th places teams until all the the spots are filled. The only way a region should get 9 places is if other regions dont have points at 3 or lower places ... but they do.
while we continue to beat this one to death as is the case every year, I'll join in...acknowledging that the perfect system does not exist, what is so magical about 255 runners toeing the line? (other than more would make it too crowded)...surely there is room for up to 300 runners...31 teams are probably enough, but why not increase the at-large individuals to up to 8 per region (as long as they are still in the top 25 at the regional race)...what does this accomplish?...ensures a greater percentage of the best runners at nationals, and it might curtail some of the complaining when at least good teams that have a bad day at regionals get some representation at Nationals...what it may come down too, is XC a team or individual sport?...for what it is worth, we spend more time on this forum predicting the individual winner as opposed to the team champion.
What if UTEP had qualified all of their runners for Nationals as individuals but the team did not qualify (this really could happen). Would they be able to count as a team, and if not, why? Statements that the would not are not answers to the 'why' question.
26mi235 wrote:
What if UTEP had qualified all of their runners for Nationals as individuals but the team did not qualify (this really could happen). Would they be able to count as a team, and if not, why? Statements that the would not are not answers to the 'why' question.
Couldn't happen, the top 4 individuals not on a team that qualifies for nationals qualify (provided they're in the top 25), then the committee adds a further 2 at large by considering their position in their regional relative to the other regionals. That would qualify 6 runners not 7, it would be remarkable to get 6 runners in the top 25 and not make the top 2 teams in the region, especially the two at large who would at least have to be 17th & 18th which is unlikely to be competitive with the candidates from all the other regionals.
Please tell me why I am wrong. Do you know what the rule says? do you know how your supposed to qualify teams based on what the book says?
It could happen... this is all hypothetical of course.
CU goes 2-3-4-14-15 = 38
BYU goes 1-5-9-12-13= 40
UTEP goes 6-7-8-10-11= 42
UTEP now qualifies all 5 as individuals... and the team does not qualify. What does the NCAA do then???
That was my question -- do they get to score as a team, since it is a complete team as far as scoring goes?
Actually wrote:
It could happen... this is all hypothetical of course.
CU goes 2-3-4-14-15 = 38
BYU goes 1-5-9-12-13= 40
UTEP goes 6-7-8-10-11= 42
UTEP now qualifies all 5 as individuals... and the team does not qualify. What does the NCAA do then???
Could you cut and paste the rule so we all could see it? Thanks.
26mi235 wrote:
That was my question -- do they get to score as a team, since it is a complete team as far as scoring goes?
Actually wrote:It could happen... this is all hypothetical of course.
CU goes 2-3-4-14-15 = 38
BYU goes 1-5-9-12-13= 40
UTEP goes 6-7-8-10-11= 42
UTEP now qualifies all 5 as individuals... and the team does not qualify. What does the NCAA do then???
Precedent is that they score as a team (I believe the statement is somewhere that 5 or more runners constitute a team).
In the mid-90's, Williams qualified 5 women for the NCAA's in the days when NESCAC wouldn't permit teams to compete but would permit individuals. The NCAA said if they competed they scored. NESCAC threatened to force the 5th girl to stay home. When other runners threatened to boycott in solidarity, NESCAC broke down. This was the single biggest event in NESCAC changing that rule, thankfully.
So, in sum, if they qualified 5 individuals, they would compete as a team, in my opinion.
Here you go... I left out much of the information that does not pertain to our subject.
The 2006 NCAA Division I Men’s and Women’s Cross Country Championships Handbook, which contain the policies and procedures governing the administration and conduct of the NCAA Division I Men’s and Women’s CrossCountry Championships ...
3. Team Selection Criteria. The track and field committee will determine at-large berths by examining the following criteria in order of importance, with regional finish being the most important:
...Reginal finish being most important!! so a Team lets say UTEP who finished third in thier region with two at large points should go ahead of a team that finished fourth in a region lets say washington. I feel that they did not follow this rule while while selecting teams.
That is what is being done with the first post of the thread. Teams continue to accumulate points as the at large teams are added to the field. That is how UTEP ends up with only two. It is who ends up with the most at large points and placing, along with the push rule. UofMich had a bunch of points but more then one team ahead of them did not so they could not push. So regional placing is taken into account, but at large points are the overriding factor. Don't you think if it was done incorrectly there would be noise about it?
It has been done uncorrectly ... Im what you call an "insider" ... it will eventually hit the fan. whether the NCAA allows those teams to race or they try and queitly change the rules...it will happen
UTEP only earned two points. they do not deserve to go. the teams with more points deserve to go. yes, they are probably better than some of the other teams that qualified, but those teams went out and competed against more good competition and got a few wins along the way.
as for the application of the selection rules, they might change it in the future, but they were applied consistent with previous years. asdf, who started this thread, has been predicting the calculations the last few years and has been accurate. the selection committee has consistently interpreted the rules in this fashion.
Actually wrote:
It could happen... this is all hypothetical of course.
CU goes 2-3-4-14-15 = 38
BYU goes 1-5-9-12-13= 40
UTEP goes 6-7-8-10-11= 42
UTEP now qualifies all 5 as individuals... and the team does not qualify. What does the NCAA do then???
UTEP in your hypothetical qualifies 4 individuals, you then assume that #11 qualifies as one of the two at-large picks, that presumes there aren't two other 5th place individuals who place higher than 11th in their Regional. In this year's Mid Atlantic Regional alone there were 7 individuals in the top 10.
Jimmyboy wrote:
Here you go... I left out much of the information that does not pertain to our subject.
The 2006 NCAA Division I Men’s and Women’s Cross Country Championships Handbook, which contain the policies and procedures governing the administration and conduct of the NCAA Division I Men’s and Women’s CrossCountry Championships ...
3. Team Selection Criteria. The track and field committee will determine at-large berths by examining the following criteria in order of importance, with regional finish being the most important:
...Reginal finish being most important!! so a Team lets say UTEP who finished third in thier region with two at large points should go ahead of a team that finished fourth in a region lets say washington. I feel that they did not follow this rule while while selecting teams.
When they say regional finish being most important, they mean within the region, not in comparison to other regions.
Honestly, I think that you are either mis-interpreting the rule, or just cherry picking that one rule. I maybe wrong.
And, you have not present a very compelling arguement to support your claim.
Jimmyboy wrote:
It has been done uncorrectly ... Im what you call an "insider" ... it will eventually hit the fan. whether the NCAA allows those teams to race or they try and queitly change the rules...it will happen
Jimmyboy,
You are not reading the criteria correctly. Or, you’re not understanding it. The fact that regional finish is the top criteria only means that a team can’t “jump over” a team that beats that team at the same regional meet. The way you seem to be interpreting the rule would qualify any third place team with a win over an auto qualifier would go. That’s not the way the system is set up.
Is UTEP good enough to be at the national meet? Yes. Of course they are. But, so is Michigan, Minnesota and plenty of other teams. It’s the same situation with different variables. UTEP didn’t have the points, but ran well at regionals. Minnesota and Michigan appear to have the points, but they didn’t run well at regionals. If you have the points, most years you just have to have a solid race at regionals. If you don’t have the points you either need to be auto or lucky (see Washington State).
Did UTEP get screwed? No. They screwed themselves. Either go get the points or get an auto qualifier.
I realize I sound like an idiot right now. But those who had teams that would qualify are talking to the NCAA committees right now and the committees are back steping because they know they are wrong. I know they are wrong. I wish I had more evidence than mostly wild speculation but I cant show you until something happens. which it will.
Get over it. UTEP is out. They didn't get enough points. It's all over for them this year. They won't skip pre nats next year and will make it to nats.
This reminds me of a song by Prozac, "Sucks to be You"
Good luck next year UTEP. See you at Nats Steve Samoei.