Synthetic testosterone found in Landis sample, report says

I was thinking the same damn things!!! I have reports which say he should have been test 7 times total. What about those results? How quickly does testosterone get metabolized? What is the actual false positive rate.

There is a great analysis by John Paulos in his book "A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper" which talks about the correct way of interpreting False Negatives and False Positives in medical testing. I have always wondered how to adapt this to drug testing. Guess the key is knowing more about the population being tested...But, it always struck me that False Positives could make up a larger portion of these tests then people generally believe (as well as false negatives)

Plus, all these tests are based on ratios of this to that. What if Floyd ate more soy cereals then the average joe...Would that effect the C13 to C12 ratio is in his "natural" testosterone...

I don't know who to beleive anymore...but when you drill down into the guts of some of these tests, they seem very non-diagnostic.

I was thinking the same damn things!!! I have read reports which say he should have been test 7 times total. What about those results? How quickly does testosterone get metabolized? What is the actual false positive rate.

There is a great analysis by John Paulos in his book "A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper" which talks about the correct way of interpreting False Negatives and False Positives in medical testing. I have always wondered how to adapt this to drug testing. Guess the key is knowing more about the population being tested...But, it always struck me that False Positives could make up a larger portion of these tests then people generally believe (as well as false negatives)

Plus, all these tests are based on ratios of this to that. What if Floyd ate more soy cereals then the average joe...Would that effect the C13 to C12 ratio is in his "natural" testosterone...

I don't know who to beleive anymore...but when you drill down into the guts of some of these tests, they seem very non-diagnostic.

Synthetic Testosterone takes approximately 7-10 days to run it's course through your body. So at a minimum, if he injected after stage 16s collapse, it would still be in his system for his mandetory test that he took on stage 19 as well. Especially if his levels were truely at the 11:1 ratio.

I've got a question to the posters who are certain he is doping...is the pattern to use testosterone but only give blood to pack back in after the this clears out and he just happened to have the blood taken before it cleared? How to you make sure you don't have testosterone in the blood for the random blood tests?

And I've got another question:

How did this thread go 4 pages without ONE person asking something important and obvious: where did this report of "synthetic testosterone" come from ?? An "ANONYMOUS source" with "insider knowledge."

Well, that's enough for me. PUT FLOYD IN FRONT OF THE FIRING SQUAD!!

C'mon guys. Sure he might have doped, by every single one of you is taking as gospel as the word of some anonymous source??? Jesus christ.

Floyd's B sample result will be revealed in a few days and whether or not synthetic testosterone is discovered or not will also hopefully be LEGITAMATELY revealed at that time (not leaked/concocted by an anonymous source).

Well, I can see that not many of you know much about the testosterone, especially the synthetic one. Yes, it would take several weeks (2-3) to see some effects of testosterone enathate, however, we don't know what kind of testosterone (or any drug ) did Floyd Landis take. There are 2 others very popular injectable testosterones: propionate and cypionate which have much, much shorter half life and then there is also pure human-like injectable testosterone which has a half-life of 5-6 hours- enough for one stage. Then there are pills like cheque drops (derivate of testosterone) taken as sublingual pills, which are very, very dangerous to take and are famous amnong boxers and fighters (K-1, ultimate, etc.)- they will change a regular person within hours (err- minutes) to raging and biting animal and have effect for 6 or more hours (remember Mike Tyson biting an ear off of Evander Holyfield?- he was suspected of taking copious amount of cheque drops before matches). Isn't it what Landis needed before that 17th stage? Lots of agressiveness, hightened self belief, animal-like strength, and quick recovery... he got it all. 11-1 ratio also support my theory, because that can be achieved only by taking a drug with a short half life.

The offense that resulted in Ben Johnson's lifetime ban showed the same fact pattern. He was tested three times between January 15 and January 21 of 1993. The tests on the 15th and the 21st came up clean but the "middle" test (on the 18th or so) showed a T/E ratio of 10.3 to 1. After long investigation the positive was upheld so there's no doubt this issue has been addressed before.

"Johnson was tested three times in five days in January 1993. He failed the second of those, a random test administered to competitors at a meet in Montreal. The data showed that Johnson had long maintained a 1:1 ratio between the hormones testosterone and epitestosterone. A ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone of 6:1 is considered a positive test; Johnson's ratio was 10.3:1 and was consequently banned for life by the International Amateur Athletics Federation.

Johnson denied using steroids and pointed to clean drug tests he'd produced before and after the event on January 15 and January 21."

In this interesting post, Landis's physiologist/trainer, not his team medic, describes Floyd's behavior the morning of the epic ride. In places, sounds close to a roid rage.

http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/article/0,6802,s1-7-123-14949-1-0-0-0-1542,00.html

Release time is DAYS....Not HOURS....It would have STILL BEEN DETECTIBLE at some level 2 days later, especially if his ratio TRUELY was 11:1.

Testosterone Cypionate: Chemical Formula C8H14O2

Testosterone cypionate is the other main injectable form of testosterone prescribed in the United States. It is a slow-acting ester with a release time between 8-10 days, similar to that of enanthate. The name-brand of testosterone cypionate available in the United States is called "Depo-Testosterone," which is suspended in cottonseed oil. Testosterone cypionate is typically injected anywhere between once every week to once every three weeks.

Testosterone Propionate: Chemical Formula C3H6O2

Testosterone propionate is a fast-acting ester with a release time of 3-4 days. To keep blood levels from fluctuating greatly, propionate is usually injected between one to three times a week. Some users also report that propionate is a more painful injection, with swelling and noticeable pain around the injection site. Brand names of testosterone propionate include "Testovis" and "Virormone."

hold the phone wrote:

How did this thread go 4 pages without ONE person asking something important and obvious: where did this report of "synthetic testosterone" come from ?? An "ANONYMOUS source" with "insider knowledge."

Well, that's enough for me. PUT FLOYD IN FRONT OF THE FIRING SQUAD!!

None of us have the power to put Landis in front of a firing line, or even suspend him from the Tour de Hoboken. Therefore we don't have to maintain an innocent until proven guilty stance.

From what I've seen, and what I know about pro cycling, my opinion is he's guilty. If I had the power, would I vote right now to give him a lifetime ban? No, because too much is still unproven and I haven't seen the direct evidence. But will I say on a dumbass message board that I think he's guilty? Sure. If I'm wrong, Landis was done no harm by me. What power do I have? It's my opinion and this is a discussion.

indiorunner wrote:

If it is proof positive, it would be such a big shame on Americans for bringing over a drug cheat to tarnish the symbolism of the yellow jersey.

The cheating Americans are just setting up all Americans, innocent or not, to be accused all the time for one win, or one good race. A real shame, but unfortunately a select few seem to represent the whole country.

huh? wrote:

It doesn't matter whether they were lifting weights or not (though hard to elieve), the vertical jump and pure sprinting ability as well as quickness and lots of agresiveness is REQUIRED together with great skills. How do you achieve it and surpass millions of others who are waiting for lucrative NBA jobs? You take steroids and train your ass off. If there are money there are drugs, it's been so from late 60's. Why would it avoid pro basketball, with millions of $ in it? Why would those guys say no, if there are no consequences for them (at least not immediate)?

Interesting argument, but you're totally wrong. For most basketball players, stregth is NOT ever going to be a limiting factor.

As someone who hasd ACTUALLY played ball at a fairly high level, I can tell you that steroids were never a part of the game. Stimulants, yes, and recreational drugs, yes :), but if you think "50%" of basketbal players are taking 'roids, you should try watching a game.

Which game? The current one in which 90% of the plays go inside?

Alan

Dehydration' latest culprit offered by Landis' lawyer

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/08/03/bc.cyc.landis.doping.ap/index.html

Dehydration? One of the articles referenced above said he went through 70 bottles of fluid during the race. I strongly doubt he could have performed like that if he was significantly dehydrated.

I've been hoping all along that Landis was somehow clean and this was all a big mistake, but it's looking more and more like he's guilty. Too bad for Floyd, too bad for cycling and especially too bad for Oscar Perriera who should have been sipping champaign in Paris.

All right, I am not a steroid expert but read this- about CHEQUE DROPS- looks like Landis might have used them (immediate reaction).

Cheque Drops are extremely potent, certainly one of the most potent androgens known to man. According to the manufacturer, "When compared to testosterone, it is 5.9 times more potent as an anabolic agent and 2.5 times more potent as an androgen." The most probable usage for Cheque Drops is for administration to athletes 30 to 40 minutes prior to an event that requires extreme aggression and adrenaline. To adapt the drug to bodybuilding purposes requires a much more complicated dosing regimen. Due to its toxicity, Cheque Drops should not be used longer than two weeks at a time, and at low dosages. However, for an anabolic effect, Cheque Drops should be used at 5mg (5,000mcg) a day or more. However, that would possibly lead to prompt physical illness. In order to find a medium that is possible for the modern bodybuilder, it is important to remember a few key aspects of the compound. Keep in mind that the dosages appropriate are only used to increase aggression, which can subsequently increase strength. The actual anabolic effect at these low doses is limited. Furthermore, long term use (beyond two weeks) will lead to testosterone suppression and liver damage. Using the drops sparingly (1-2 drops at a concentration of 200-250mcg 30 minutes prior to a workout for no more than 2 weeks at a time) will provide a boost in training and aggression. Many users report breaking personal lift records when utilizing the compound. If the drops are used short term, testosterone levels should bounce back rather quickly. However, due to the risk of suppression, it is best to use the drops while on an anabolic stack in order to ensure elevated test levels. As the drops are only used as a supplement to lifting, they can be used when bulking or cutting. I would never recommend using this stuff without other compounds; however, the increased aggression without the increased performance provided by other compounds may be dangerous. They do not aromatize (convert to estrogen), so if used in the context above, Nolvadex, Armidex, or other such agents are not necessary, nor is the use of Clomid. It is highly progestenic, but in the doses we´re talking about, that won´t be a concern either. Unfortunately, this stuff blocks LH secretion, which will wreak havoc with your natural hormone production with prolonged use.

The half-life of the compound is very short (about 4 hours), so along with its immediate impact on the body, it leaves quickly as well. The drug has had enough of an impact, however, to be included in most all banned substance lists in most athletic organizations, so precaution should still be utilized. Several metabolites of this compound may still be detectable however (J Vet Pharmacol Ther. 2000 Apr;23(2):57-66.), if you are tested immediately.

KidStallyn wrote:

The half-life of the compound is very short (about 4 hours), so along with its immediate impact on the body, it leaves quickly as well. ....(J Vet Pharmacol Ther. 2000 Apr;23(2):57-66.), if you are tested immediately.

Interesting. If he took this stuff then would it have gotten him through the 6 hr stage?

cant it be that they were in lances shadow...got cold and would do anything to get out....

Dehydration....What a bunch of crap....didn't the guy dump like 900 bottles of water over his head in stage 19.....Drink like 400.....Give me a break.....

I want to believe the guy is innocent...But with idiotic statements like this.....It's like a 3 year old trying to come up with an excuse of why a donzen chocolate chip cookies are missing while they got the chcolate smeared all over thier face....