Alford-Sullivan to coach both Men's & Women's Program at PSU

coach s, I know this because I had a meeting with the assistant Athletic director. However, it doesn't mean that thw assistant distance coach will be coaching the men. More like Sullivan and her assistant will coach the men and women together (mostly her with the other person helping). Also, it made me quite angry to hear that not one person was interviewed for the job. They did not even give an interview to longtime assistant men's coach. How is it possible that they don't even have to conduct an interview with anyone?

You are all acting like this is the Univ. of Arkansas or something. Penn State can be good, really good, but they really aren't that good right now. Harry did some great things as a coach, but this program hasn't lit the world (nor the the NCAA or Big 10)on fire in the recent past.

If some one said to you read between the lines. Please do it. There are some lines you are not reading between here. Look, you are clearly and absolutely missing the entire point to this entire situation. This is not about Beth Alford-Sullivan (not one single bit). This is about one great big F - U to Harry Groves. One of the biggest F - U 's delivered by an athletic department to a long standing coach in a very long time.

They gave him the opportunity to leave on his own, when he was ready (even though the Men's Team has struggled in the Big 10 and nationally recently). But as he left the Atheltic Department has said, "This is our program (not your's), you are gone, and we (own it) and will operate it the way we wish."

What is the single situation he would least want to happen?

They will see to it that this succeeds. Just watch it happen...

Brain-dead coach, Alford-Sullivan-Wheedling-Wonder-Woman hasn't a snowballs chance in hell in succeeding. She has no credentials of her own. There is no rapport with the athletes. She will NEVER be able to recruit. Look at her record with blue-chippers in the women;s program, none of them have ever amounted to anything. How do you think she's going to be able to coach the bottom of the barrel?

Would you be Big Alan Scharsu?

Hasn't there already been Pennsylvania State Champions in Cross Country who have gone D-II and not run on the Men's Team at PSU. I thought that situation (about a year ago) was already well discussed here.

I am not talking about Beth. This is not about Beth.

I am talking about the athletic department, their disdain for Harry Groves, and their desire to see this situation succeed (simply and clearly to spite him).

Read between the lines. They are not that blurred.

If you want to argue if she will have what it takes to succeed (win Big 10's, have a significant presence at NCAA's), fine. Let me put it this way; the Men's XC/Track and Field Team will certainly not be any worse than it has been the last few years. Is that not enough for you fine. They don't care...

The PSU Athletic Department is tired of Harry and his comments. He may be 100% correct in every thing he says. It doesn't matter, that is not what this is about. They are tired of him and not only did they hire "his worst nightmare". They did it without asking him. They did it with out considering anyone else. Plus they are going to give her the budget, staffing, and resources to be sure that she succeeds...

THink Groves can get his job back?

Shes only a woman

I think noone understands what is going on in this situation. The men's program is not good right now and they really can't get worse. The finish in the bottom 3 at Big Tens regularly. A change could do them good. Coach Groves can not recruit well and also he gives scholorships to undeserving athletes, only because that is all he can get in.

On the other hand the women's program has been very successful. Since 2004 they have won a BIg Tens, finished 2nd twice, 4th twice and then also 3rd. That is very good in a strong conference. Also they finished 3rd at this years outdoor Big Tens with 6 full scholorship athletes on the sidelines ( which is pretty damn impressive). Being a good coach isn't just about having good athletes- it is about getting in good assistent coaches and getting your team into good meets...and she does all of that. With this move she will be hiring someone to replace coach groves, so she will not soley be in charge of distance. This move is huge and can only benefit the men's program, which can't recuit, doesn't go to good meets, and hasn't done a damn thing as a team in the Big Ten in a long time. Period.

my guess was 77-81 for one Al Wolfe...

psu track wrote:

How is it possible that they don't even have to conduct an interview with anyone?

As PSU is a state university that should not be possible. State laws, no matter it they have someone in mind or not, still have to be followed. A good lawyer should be a able to shoot holes in this hire. The state of PA should be informed to say the least.

she sucks

My disclaimer:

Don't know Harry at all. Don't know this BAS at all.

Here are some things that I don't think anyone can argue with (but hey if you want to go ahead and try):

1.

Penn State was, when I started running in '79 one of the MOST revered programs in the nation. After Oregon they were probably the best in terms of honors won over the 70's. They were perennial top-4 placers in the NCAA in XC (at least that is what I remember them being). I specifically remember Fredericks' 28:08 while in college (back when 28:00 meant something at the world-level), Malley's accomplishments in XC and the mile and steeple, Stemmer's 28:29 on the track, Scharsu being top American at NCAA XC (behind Olympic level Africans)...

Better informed people could give probably 10 more great examples of individuals from 1970 to 1985 that show how great the program was. How this occurred could be up for endless debate I guess, but THAT IT ACTUALLY occurred cannot.

2.

Penn Sate is a great university overall, in a beautiful place and many students are interested in going there. Therefore, many distance runners should also be interested in going there. It is big enough that they should be able to afford a Men's distance/XC coach and one for the Women's side. They should be different people. I saw that Schumacher makes $68,000 or something. The lowest they should pay BOTH COACHES is $50,000 a year plus bonuses. Maybe this is on the low side I am not in the know, but for christ's sake they pay a groundskeeper $25,000 plus benefits. I guess my point is that a University in the freakin' BIG 10 shoudl be able to afford TWO XC coaches.

3.

Men don't want to be coached by a women. Yes, I said it. Some of you might say, "No, Brian you're wrong I don't care." But most of you do care and don't want to be coached by a women. Why? the reason for me is that no matter how good she is/was she never ran a 4:10 mile or a 8:15 3000. she didn't run the Steeple (or if she did she is only 25 now). There are a lot of female runners that get my respect. I saw a lot of them at BIG 10's this weekend. Most of the impressive ones were from U of M. It was truly impressive to see them line up like a team time trial in the 5k and 10k and try to sweep or try to get a R-qualifier or whatever they were trying to do. But the point is they did it, especially in the 5k. However, these girls still only ran 16:00-flat and 33:45 which I ran when I was 16 years old as a sophomore.

It doesn't mean I have less respect for their ability, but If that is the level they achieved in college, then I don't want them coaching me when I am shooting for sub-14:00 and sub-29:00.

People will say, "What about male coaches who were mediocre runners?" I say, GOOD POINT, but they still probably ran 4:30/9:40 in high school ... times which no female HS'er has ever run.

4.

If I am a midwestern or Eastern high school boy who is a good/great 800/1600/3200 runner and my academic interests line up well with PSU, and I am also looking at, say Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin and Michigan State. It is already a very competitive scenario out there. Can you honestly say that if you met Coach Gary, Warhurst and Kevin Sullivan, Schumacher and Pascal Dobert, and Walt Drenth and saw all those schools have to offer and then you went to PSU and met a woman who has to run both programs who finished LAST in XC last year (and then tried to sugar coat it) woudl really impress you to the point that that would be your choice for school?

That is where the rubber meets the road when you are getting talent, then after that you have to develop and sustain it.

16X keeps sayign that BAS will be no better or worse than Harry Groves was. i don't know how you can be so certain of this. I think that she hasn't shown much ability to develop or even least maintain good talent.

I don't know know Harry at all (met him once in 1985 and once in 2006) and I am sure that (like me) he has faults, but he sure had his share of success stories in his early years of coaching. I don't see that BAS is "guaranteed" of accomplishing that much in her whole career much less in just the beginning.

Like you, my contacts with Harry were very brief. He wouldn't know me if he ran over me with his car, and I'm assuming here that he has one. But I went to grad school at PSU in his glory days there. I know the program isn't what it once was, but Harry had a history of success, even if it was getting to be a somewhat distant history.

What's disappointing is that the place has the potential to be immensely successful at track and xc and if the sport mattered to them at all they'd have taken this opportunity to get a coach whose reputation is already established. They certainly have the resources to do that. Instead they're turning the program over to someone with no history at all, even a distant one, of developing distance runners. And while it may not be true that ALL male high school blue chippers won't want to run for a woman, a significant number won't. So they're looking to turn around a program with a coach who hasn't shown the ability to develop a distance runner and who will be at something of a disadvantage when trying to recruit. I don't see a lot of hope for success in that scenario.

If it's true that Curley is kicking Groves in the teeth with this hiring, then as much as I respect Joe Paterno, I half hope the football team reverts to its 2003-2004 form. The school deserves that if they're truly selling out their track and xc programs for an AD's petty revenge. What I think is more likely going on is that they simply don't give a crap about the sport and see this as a way to save a buck and make some women's groups happy, which they probably need to do since they didn't fire Rene Portland.

THIS is a great point. How is this possible?

I used to work at a State University and they tried to hire a coach without going through the state hiring process once. Some state official caught wind of it and came in and stopped the hire. The law was that a job had to be pposted for a certain amount of time in "public" forums (newspapers, journals, etc) for a certain amount of time and that a search committe must be formed to determine the best candidate.

Did PSU ever post this position as open? Was there ever any search? Were resumes taken and a group of finalists determined? Did PSU's administration do anything correctly under the PA law in this regard? As I do NOT know Pennsylvania law, can someone answer this?

I think someone might be able to file a grievance on this.

3.

Men don't want to be coached by a women. Yes, I said it. Some of you might say, "No, Brian you're wrong I don't care." But most of you do care and don't want to be coached by a women. Why? the reason for me is that no matter how good she is/was she never ran a 4:10 mile or a 8:15 3000. she didn't run the Steeple (or if she did she is only 25 now). There are a lot of female runners that get my respect. I saw a lot of them at BIG 10's this weekend. Most of the impressive ones were from U of M. It was truly impressive to see them line up like a team time trial in the 5k and 10k and try to sweep or try to get a R-qualifier or whatever they were trying to do. But the point is they did it, especially in the 5k. However, these girls still only ran 16:00-flat and 33:45 which I ran when I was 16 years old as a sophomore.

Oh My God!

First off darkness, I wouldn't care if a girl or guy was my coach. Look at Lukezic...girl coach, if I am not mistaken. Secondly, you jack ass, when and how does it matter if your coach was a four minute miler or a 5 minute miler? So every sub-4 miler must be a good coach? B.S.!!! Tell me how many times Bill Bowerman ran 8:15 3k or a 4:10 mile? Tell me how many times Vin Lananna ran 8:15 3k or a 4:10? How fast have the Hanson brothers ran in respective events? Sure, there are a lot of good coaches who have run fast times and had successful coaching careers, but it doesn't always equate. So, I guess Alan Webb sucks too, since his coach only ever ran a 4:16 mile?

You're an a$$hole, just like everyone else who believes in this crap!

I agree...if anything the reason that this won't work is because of people like this who are so closed minded. Give it a chance before you right it off. yes coach groves was a good coach...20 YEARS AGO. Being a head coach, she doesn;t only sit on the fate of the distance runners she has the rest of the team as well.

Are the men on the team scared? Is this soley about distance? How about sprinters and throwers? I think the men's team as a whole needed a hard kick to the a** and needs to try to match the women's teams recent success on the Big Ten and national levels.

Fact: PSU women are sending 4 distance runners to regionals (3 in the steeple and well 3 in the 8, but 2 are also sprinters) The men are only sending 2, and in the 800.

To me that doesn't seem like Harry is doing such a great job getting his boys developed and making it in the 10, 5, steeple and 15. So stop pulling this shit that BAS doesn't represent at Big Tens in distance because besides in the 10K and the 800, where did the men's program score in distance? The women's team almost doubled how many points the men scored at big tens and they had about 8 more people qualify for regionals then the men's team.

She has had success as a head coach, don't just focus on distance- end of story.

Nobody said Harry didn't do a piss poor job the last few years. You are wrong though about women' steeple time. It is fairly easy to make regionals. Further, closeminded-ness has nothing to do with it. High School seniors do not want to run for a woman coached male track team. It ruins so much bond it is unbelievable. You have to be able to trust your coach to be a successful team (atleast in cross) and that will not happen this way. I do not see BAS putting in the bond experiance with a group of 18-24 y.o guys. (Or really anyone for that matter)

This is another case of people thinking, "It's just running." There is philosophy involved and coaches are important.

I was on the women's team and i agree that men will not want to be coached by a woman. I don't think this is wrong. Women do well with either a male or female coach but i do not think that it works the other way. PSU can have an awesome men's program. i just don't thnk BAS is the one for the job -- it's moe of a power trip!!

Two things really bother me about this.

1. In no way shape for form is BAS even close to one the top coaches in the country. I give her 100% credit for finding fanstastic sprint coaches who are the main vehicles behind the team's track success. She is a good recruiter, but the results are just not there when it comes to longer events. This matters b/c she will obviously directing the distance programs and just does not have a clue on how to develop talent. Their workouts are a joke or least they were when I was there, the results prove that.

2. No one can defend that results of Harry over last 10 years are so, although reasons do exist. But, he has been coach for 38 yrs and at PSU that means something. They treated him like piss and kicked him out the door all in the favor of BAS, disgraceful. How can they not ask him for input or even interview other candidates?

3. Say what you want, but PSU is a sleeping giant. With all the resources, great facilities, Big 10, great state school (ie 50 percent scholarships work), etc. They had a chance to get someone great and failed. end of story.