Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

Dr Phil wrote:

But I didn't say that, did I.

But you mentioned race. If you want to compare Jordan to great black guys that could play look at highlights of Dr J. He was incredible! He could take it to the hole as well as Jordan. When he played in the ABA the talent was incredible. Dr J talked about a game when he scored 63. It went to 4 overtimes and he lost 176-166! They are lucky to score half that much nowadays.

Everything else notwithstanding, Jordan, Bird, and Magic shared three traits to an extraordinary degree: vision; will to win; and intelligent anticipation. I know of no other players who had these three traits to the extent of these guys.

Dr Phil wrote:

Look, all you fools hoping to convince yourself that a white man was the best player ever, are nothing but jaded by color. Jordan was the best player ever. PERIOD. Bird is somewhere in the next 5. Bird is NOT the best player ever.

A white man will never have the athleticism to be the best ever. Yes, intangibles, vision, passing, team player etc. But thats only cuz they cant do the other stuff. Jordan just had all the the stuff mentioned AND he was a world class athlete. Some of you fools are trying to tell me that players would rather have played with someone else. Well they should give back thier rings, cuz bottom line, Jordan put banners in the gym, thats the goal of the game.

Yes, Larry Bird was the best.

1st or 2nd in MVP 6 straight years (1981-86) I think Bill Russell is the only other such player.

Probably should have been 9 straight years... I mean how was he not the MVP or runner up in 1980 (Celtics won 32 more games his rookie year with same core from previous year)?

And no WAY should Jordan have been 2nd to his 3rd in 1987-----the Bulls still had a losing record!

Then Bird was 2nd in 1988.

Shoulda been Top 2 from 1980-1988----essentially every healthy year he played (played a lot of games in 1990---but I don't know how healthy he was and he missed a lot of games in 1989, 1991 and 1992).

I think the biggest knock would be on his shorter window of great years due to injury, which compromises to some degree the greatness of his career------but he was the best player when he played.

It is ridiculous that Jordan got more MVP votes than Bird in 1987.

It was Jordan's 3rd pro season and the Bulls still weren't a .500 team. Jordan scored 37ppg by taking a zillion shots for a losing team.

Bird scored 28 ppg averaged 9 Rebs and 7-8 assists and pulled off the rare .500+ from the field/ .400+ from 3 and .900 FT % for a 59 win top seed in e East.

A volume shooter on a loser over the best player on the best team in the East with a monster stat line of his own?

What the hell were the voters thinking? What was so valuable with what Jordan did?

Dr Phil wrote:

Look, all you fools hoping to convince yourself that a white man was the best player ever, are nothing but jaded by color. Jordan was the best player ever. PERIOD. Bird is somewhere in the next 5. Bird is NOT the best player ever.

A white man will never have the athleticism to be the best ever. Yes, intangibles, vision, passing, team player etc. But thats only cuz they cant do the other stuff. Jordan just had all the the stuff mentioned AND he was a world class athlete. Some of you fools are trying to tell me that players would rather have played with someone else. Well they should give back thier rings, cuz bottom line, Jordan put banners in the gym, thats the goal of the game.

Black, white or yellow, MJ's playoff record in the 80s was 14-23. 1-9 without Pippen, 13-14 with him. A failure either way. Bird won 50 playoff games in the same 1985-89 span. That's an ass beating and skin color had nothing to do with it. And before anyone whines about who Bird played with---he turned a 29 win team into a 61 win team without any of those guys (McHale, Parish, Dennis Johnson, Ainge)... And when Bird was out in 1989, those guys all played and the Celtics were 22-24 without Bird before hitting the trade market (they were 57-25 the year before with Bird. Same guys.). Jordan could get numbers for himself, but he was a loser at the team game well into his career------and his fortunes didn't change until after Bird----no matter his skin color----was shot physically. Those are just the facts. Skin color/ schmin color. One guy won a lot, the other guy didn't----until the first guy was done.

To the douche above. Basketball is a TEAM game. Instead of blaming Jordan individually why don't you blame --Geez-- I don't know--- the CHICAGO BULLS ORGANIZATION for their failure of getting a better coach, and better players to surround Jordan with like the Celtics did with Bird and the Lakers did with Magic. Doesn't matter anyhow, Lebron will eventually surpass both and become the GOAT when its all said and done...... Black or white as you just said.

gamecock wrote:

Decrepit Geezer wrote:

Speaking of white guys who played for the Celtics in that period, I think history actually undervalues Kevin McHale. Charles Barkley agrees.

No doubt. Only guy to shoot 60% from the floor and 80% from the line! and he did it twice. He could have been MVP in '86 except for being on the same team with Bird. And more moves in the low post than any big man, ever.

Make that more low post moves than anyone except Olajuwon

Kelvin G wrote:

And before anyone whines about who Bird played with---he turned a 29 win team into a 61 win team without any of those guys (McHale, Parish, Dennis Johnson, Ainge)... And when Bird was out in 1989, those guys all played and the Celtics were 22-24 without Bird before hitting the trade market (they were 57-25 the year before with Bird. Same guys.). Jordan could get numbers for himself, but he was a loser at the team game well into his career.

Must have initially typed the above in invisible font.

I understand non-championships with lesser supporting talent. Or a lesser coach. I don't buy LOSING seasons.

There were much better players around in the 1940s and 1950s.

R2D3 wrote:

There were much better players around in the 1940s and 1950s.

I got a real good chuckle out of that...

...but then I started wondering what these players today would look like trying to play by the rules of other eras.

No hop steps allowed. That was called "steps" or traveling.

No jump stops. That was called "up and down" or traveling.

No palming the ball as you dribble. That was called "turning the ball over" or traveling.

The offensive games of many of today's players are dependent on making moves that would be traveling in either many other eras OR essentially any other era.

I hate it because it makes it impossible to compare across eras. And we all love to do that in sports. And it's just become impossible.

Another thing that is blatant is you see a player moving and catching a pass---and he comes down on both feet with the ball and hops forward or to the side before shooting. This is also called "up and down". It was traveling.

You couldn't leave the ground with the ball and come down with it.

Now you can. And it helps so much with shooting the ball. You don't have to maintain a pivot foot after catching the ball. You can hop to square yourself. HUGE difference.

I just hate the direction the NBA and NFL have both taken with rules changes to make offense easier. I understand why they do. They are marketing both leagues to wider audiences and dollars are at all time highs------but at the expense of the sport part of it. The GAME has changed. And I don't think for the better. Defense has become a bad word.

And I was watching Kansas vs Texas and Mitchell Wiggins's kid caught a ball at the top of the arc, came down with the ball on both feet---then hopped forward before shooting the 3.

So it's in the colleges, too.

It's just not the same, for better or worse.

The New King wrote:

Doesn't matter anyhow, Lebron will eventually surpass both and become the GOAT when its all said and done......

Nah. Jordan never looked like he crapped his pants in the Finals, looking around like a dope trying to find someone else to shoot the ball. Neither did Larry. There's unselfish and there's yellow. (No intended, e.g., race/ color, etc.)

No PUN intended. I meant.

This is a hell of a long thread that I am not going to read...haven't posted within it yet.

Bird as heralded as he is, is still underrated. I am not sure if he was better than Jordan overall though...tough to compare.

The greatest thinker in Hockey, Wayne Gretzky, said that Bird spent the majority of his energy looking to fine space where no one else was. Or something similar to that. Gretz studied great athletes from other sports to understand them and used other sports - some of which he was very good at - to apply to hockey. For example, rolling of the check in lacrosse, to avoid getting hit in the NHL, in soccer putting the ball into empty space, where a player will eventually arrive...(seconds), basketball - watched Bird's dishing and movement etc etc....

Gretzky spent a lot of time finding unoccupied space for himself, as well as for the puck. I can think several unique plays that no one was doing at the time. He'd cross the blue line with the puck, stop, turn and slide the puck a few feet in front of himself...Paul Coffey, an incredible skater would pick that puck up at 90 miles an hour and go to the net with it, while guess where Gretz was? On the point for Coffey...Bill Murray said Bird isn't white, he is clear....ha ha

Athleticsillustrated wrote:

Bird as heralded as he is, is still underrated. I am not sure if he was better than Jordan overall though...tough to compare.

I'm not sure, either. It is a tough call when you consider Jordan's greatest days came after Bird was past his healthy prime/ heading to retirement/ retired. And many of Bird's came at Jordan's expense.

I remember a video of Jordan wishing Bird well in retirement-----and he said something to the effect of: "I'm not going to miss you... I'm tired of seeing your face... You ruined a lot of games for me", etc. And it's true. Bird had A LOT of success in that matchup.

It's important to always remember it's a team matchup, but Larry went to a bad team, too. And the team Larry had in those games with the Bulls----those players didn't win a lot when Larry didn't play. It's been detailed here in this thread plenty of times.

I usually don't like "greatest ever" debates. They often become political wars. They often become courtroom dramas where less energy is spent on fact finding----and more energy is spent on presenting biased chunks of propaganda "to win your case".

But for those who like these debates, I can see why it's tough for some to put Jordan ahead of Bird.

Dwight E wrote:

But for those who like these debates, I can see why it's tough for some to put Jordan ahead of Bird.

I just remember the Celtics crapping out the year Bird was out. McHale and Parish couldn't win without him. Makes you wonder what Robert and Kevin's legacies would be without Larry.

The Bulls did so well without MJ the 1st time he retired.

Clearly, Jordan's TEAM success was more dependent on who was on his team than Bird's was----yet you always get "look at who Bird played with"...

Yeah----and look at how they did without him.

Then do the same for Jordan. Mike doesn't as good as Larry when you do that.

K5 wrote:

gamecock wrote:

No doubt. Only guy to shoot 60% from the floor and 80% from the line! and he did it twice. He could have been MVP in '86 except for being on the same team with Bird. And more moves in the low post than any big man, ever.

Make that more low post moves than anyone except Olajuwon

I'm going to quote Bill Simmons again, because it's one of the best basketball quotes ever: "Olojuwan was the In-and-Out Burger of low post moves. 3 things on the menu, all of them outstanding. McHale was the Panda Express of low post moves. A never-ending smorgasbord of combinations."

A lot of amateur iPhone videos of LeBron dunking after practice are making the rounds as another All Star Weekend dunk contest (that he apparently refuses to be in) approaches...

When GOAT talk heats up, don't anyone forget to mention HEART. Gotta have HEART.

Jordan put his money on the table in the Dunk Contest.

Bird put his money on the table in the 3-point Shootout.

They weren't afraid to lose.

You can't be GOAT and be afraid to lose. JMO.

Both Bird and Jordan have stated at some point that they hated losing more than they liked winning. But they still competed. Because they had pride. They had guts. They weren't afraid. They were killers.

This guy (LeBron) doesn't have that. He's afraid to lose. He's afraid to go for it.

But he's still so full of himself so he has edited videos of himself dunking make their way to ESPN as another dunk contest approaches.

If Larry Bird opted out of the 3-point Shootout---but then took edited videos of him making treys after practice and they "somehow" made their way on ESPN-------------> he would be properly ripped as a wuss. And we'd all be screaming for him to put it on the line or go away.

LeBron is SO seriously gifted. They were just apparently out of championship-timbre guts when they were making him.

Odd.

Bird played excellent TEAM DEFENSE but he was not a great one on one defender. Michael Jordan was better as an all around player (and individual defender).

LARRY BIRD the greatest???

Only if winnIng---regardless of who's on your team---is important.

Only if winning tons of games---with guys who can't win half their games without you---is important

If something is more important than that, maybe you pick someone else.