Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

Nobody tricked defenders like Bird.

Very creative and ingenious. A blast to watch

Glack wrote:

Of course, there is always the option to simply conclude that LeBron James played poorly.

Did you read what I wrote? Lebron DIDN'T play poorly. He just wasn't in the plays. Why would a reporter ask Lebron about being used as a decoy in the Philly series if he wasn't being used DIFFERENTLY than he had ever been used in his career?

Here is the way it is wrote:

Most of Jordan's assists were decidedly UNspectacular. .

Even kobe klanker gets assists when he's double teamed, spins, jumps up to take another terrible off balance shot with little chance of going in, and reluctantly passes to a teammate who immediately shoots it knowing the chance he will get another shot is very slim.

As for Jordan, the assists to Paxson and Kerr were pretty spectacular.

I wasn't talking about the Philly series. I was talking about the Finals VS the Mavs. I apologize if I misunderstood. What I was saying is that it's a viable option to just say LeBron played poorly against the Mavs.

kind of mind boggling wrote:

Glack wrote:

Of course, there is always the option to simply conclude that LeBron James played poorly.

Did you read what I wrote? Lebron DIDN'T play poorly. He just wasn't in the plays. Why would a reporter ask Lebron about being used as a decoy in the Philly series if he wasn't being used DIFFERENTLY than he had ever been used in his career?

Great players all. I personally think that Kobe Bryant, Karl Malone and Julius Erving are overrated but these are good lists.

Interesting to note that your top ten consists of 5 centers, 4 scoring forwards/shooting guards and 1 point guard (also, 8 individuals who were the primary scorers on their teams vs 2 who were not). Not to say this conclusively but I am wondering if there is a tendency to underestimate the value of rebounding, defense and ball handling in exercises such as these.

Cases in point would be the three whom I consider to be overrated. Compare them to John Stockton and others with less flash but perhaps more substance.

I don't think it's so much about style VS substance. I'm talking about assists that require a tougher shot to be made to complete the play VS the scorer getting a 'gimme' to complete the play. It's almost as if the credit for the 2 points the passer and the scorer teamed up for could be allocated variably. Just a concept-----I have no idea how that could be accomplished, though in today's era of advanced metrics, I hope somebody's working on it.

In a similar light, when you look at a Jordan highlight reel, you see A LOT of drives to the basket where he acrobatically lays the ball off the glass despite a 7-footer being in the way. To ME, he isn't hot-dogging so much as creating a basket where there was none. It would be great if that could be weighted, too.

In baseball, an RBI is an RBI-----but the guy who hits a sac fly to get in the guy who tripled is different in quality from the guy who triples in the guy who walked.

Regardless, there HAS to be a highlight reel of Jordan's passing, no? He made too many plays for there not to be. JMO.

You make good points.

As far as that highlight reel, I doubt you'll ever find one. Like I said, his assists were made off of easy passes, not flashy ones. The plays that created the assist may have been highlight reel worthy but the passes themselves were not.

You have summed up Jordan well and he was great. He could take it to the hole better than just about anyone ever so he could break down the defences and kick it out to a shooter.The thing about Bird is he broke down the defences in a variety of ways (shooting or passing or dribbling etc.)

then he often passed it UNDER the basket and set up an easy layup. I never said it was flashy I said it was FANTASTIC!

Totally agreed that Bird was among the most amazing passers ever. Great to watch. And definitely among the best players of all time.

It's a shame, I think, because Jordan DID make plays to get his specialists shots, and it gets undervalued to a degree. I also think there's a difference between being a passer VS a playmaker. Maybe Jordan was more the latter.You also have your players who made a ton of great passes that were to the guy who then passed it for an assist. The first guy who started the 'play' gets no assist (unlike hockey a lot of times)-----but he's facilitating ball movement, whereas some other players rarely give the ball up/ facilitate ball movement-----but when they do finally give it up (frequently on bail out passes if they get hung up--------if the recipient of the pass drills a 25 footer, they get an assist.

Here is the way it is wrote:

You make good points.

As far as that highlight reel, I doubt you'll ever find one. Like I said, his assists were made off of easy passes, not flashy ones. The plays that created the assist may have been highlight reel worthy but the passes themselves were not.

The two best passers that I have ever seen are Bird and Chris Mullen. Others had a lot more assists, of course, like Stockton, Magic, Thomas, and Jackson, but Bird and Mullen find angles no one else could ever find. Bird and Mullen were also the two best shooters I have ever seen, of high volume shooters. 24/10/6.3 for his career were Bird's numbers and his career was cut short by many years by his back injury. He was so dominant still when he could get out there even in 1991 that he had one healthy game against a fine Portland Trailblazer team where he had 49/14/12. However, Magic Johnson was incomparable at opening up the court and running among the greatest breaks ever, and Michael Jordan was not only an incomparable scorer at the 2 guard with the entire defense keying on him every time, but a great, great defender and absolutely deadly in leading the break with Scottie Pippen and Rodman or Grant. In those respects he was superior to Bird, who was, they say, an underrated help defender but no shotblocker or one on one defender of great ability. Bird and Jordan were both good with the steals but Jordan was the career leader until Stockton, I think. Stockton ended up as career assist and steals leader and shot over .500 on many occasions, incredible for a 6'2" point guard. Stockton in fact would lead the Jazz with Malone to lead the league as a team in shooting percentage year after year.

Glack wrote:

I wasn't talking about the Philly series. I was talking about the Finals VS the Mavs. ]

The point I was making was that in the first playoff series that year against Philly, Lebron was being used as a "decoy" standing over by the sidelines for most of the offensive set. It was so different that reporters were asking him about it. The next two series he wasn't used as much this way and took over the Boston series. For some unexplained reason, they went back to using him as a "decoy" against Dallas.

Here is a thread from 2011

Here is what I wrote on another thread in 2011

"Having Lebron standing over by the sidelines as his teammates turned the ball over on 4 straight possessions in the 4th quarter of game 4 is no way to try to win a championship"

That is interesting what you say about Chris Mullin. I think

there are so many players that were GREAT players but never got the credit they deserve. Bernard King, Michael Ray Richardson, David Thompson. When these guys were on their games they as good as anyone EVER!

1st off, let me say that it's a pleasure to discuss this with you. You're intelligent and you're a gentleman. I respect what you are saying. I remember watching the Mavs series and wondering what the heck the Heat were doing. I have spent more time wondering if Spoelstra was big enough for that job than I have said to myself "good coach". I get THAT aspect of questioning Spoelstra's viability. Where criticism of Spoelstra gets dicey for me is when I'm "supposed to" buy that Eric Spoelstra---a 'nothing' in the basketball universe compared to the players on that team-----a man I've seen publicly disrespected (players bumping him coming off the court) is somehow making LeBron James play a style he doesn't want to. The same LeBron James who doesn't appear to care too much about what he does (e.g., "The Decision" or that pyrotechnic stage show with just Bosch and Wade and not the rest of the team)--------yet I'm supposed to think Spoelstra is solely responsible for LeBron playing the game he did against the Mavs... I hope you can understand that it's hard to believe. LeBron looked bad in the Mavs series. The number one person to hold responsible for that -------to me.... is LeBron. Even it was Spoelstra's hair brained scheme to deploy LeBron 25 feet from the basket rather than post him up-------I believe a stronger player would have spoken up. Hell, when Gene Hackman wanted somebody else taking the last shot in "Hoosiers"------even the introverted Jimmy Chipwitch (sp?) had the stones to tell him "no". And Jimmy never had the gaul or self- importance to have a 1-hour show to reveal that he was gonna "play ball". No, I don't think LeBron lacks for nerve. I don't buy the "good soldier" explanation. You do have my complete respect, though.

I'm just going to throw out the name Connie Hawkins when talking about GOAT.

One can only speculate because he spent all his prime years of the 1960s banned from the NBA just for being connected to a gambling scandal in college. He was finally vindicated and played for the NBA in the early to mid 70s when he was over the hill and got a knee injury. But those highlights from the NBA show him as arguably the most complete player ever.

Russell 11 rings

Steelernation wrote:

Russell 11 rings

I never saw Russell play, so I can't argue too vehemently for or against---except to say you can't just discount him.

He is the greatest winner in North American team team sports. He was the most dominant player on those championship teams. I don't think the Celtics won an NBA title before he got there. Then they went to 12 Finals and won 11 of them in his 13 years. The 1 year they didn't make the Finals, they were stopped by Philadelphia with Chamberlain (a historically celebrated team). The 1 year they lost in the Finals, it was to a team with another historically great player, Bob Petit.

I was reading an article that was saying that Jordan valued Kobe over LeBron because Kobe had more rings. Wouldn't Jordan, himself, value Russell over everyone, then?

I was reading somewhere the query: "Can LeBron match Michael's 6 championships"? As if they're the only 2 in the discussion. As if basketball before Jordan started winning rings doesn't count.

I wonder what Jordan would say about him VS LeBron if LeBron eventually becomes part of more than 6 championship teams. Jordan has already hinted at how he would feel------Jordan has said that "LeBron wouldn't be as successful in the 90s" as he is in today's NBA (supposedly because of rule changes that help LeBron).

Jordan could be right about that. I can't dismiss it out of hand. But in the same light, does Jordan actually think HE didn't benefit from officiating? Relative to his predecessors? Relative to his CONTEMPORARIES? Does Jordan 'penalize himself' when he compares HIS era to previous eras? Does he think the 90s were the pinnacle of NBA history? That would be a tough sell, IMO. I'd say the 80s were tougher. You had the mid-late 80s Pistons, who the Bulls couldn't beat when Detroit was in their prime----and Detroit couldn't beat a prime early-mid/late 80s Celtic team----who had to slug it out with the early-mid 80s Sixers and the 80s Lakers, then the Pistons... health went along way in determining the eventual victor among the giants of that era. It was a decade that Jordan participated in half the seasons----yet made no Finals. He and Pippen were 13-14 in Playoff games in the 80s. Jordan was 14-23 in Playoff games overall in the 80s.

I wonder what Jordan would say about the 80s VS the 90s. I think I know what he SHOULD say, particularly based on his value system.

Of course, previous decades/eras could point out things about their time relative to the 80s and make their case.

Russell's time cannot be discounted. His candidacy for GOAT cannot be dismissed. IMO.

People get too hung up with stats. Jordan could have lead the NBA in assists in any year had he wanted to or needed to. But the Bulls didn't need Jordan passing much, as evidence by their record and Championships. Why even bring it up. Don't you think with his abilities he could have been one of the top passers in the league.

Tarzan wrote:

People get too hung up with stats. Jordan could have lead the NBA in assists in any year had he wanted to or needed to. But the Bulls didn't need Jordan passing much, as evidence by their record and Championships. Why even bring it up. Don't you think with his abilities he could have been one of the top passers in the league.

Jordan MAY be the greatest player ever but ask just about any player who they would rather HAVE ON THEIR TEAM Bird or Jordan and I bet that they ALL would rather have Bird! Why? Because Bird would throw them the BALL! Jordan was a ball hog.