Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

To answer my own questions (I'm not totally lazy!):1) Jordan only played 18 games in his 2nd year; Bulls went 9-92) Jordan played 2 years in Washington; Wizards went 30-30 one year and 37-45 the other year3) The Bulls were 27-55 the year before Jordan arrived4) he was without Pippen and Phil in Washington as believed5) Jordan's non-Pippen/ non-Phil teams were 154-170 in Jordan's games with no winning seasons in any of the 5 years. For what it's worth.

M. Corbin wrote:

So it's true. I do believe that Jordan missed a lot of games during that 2nd year, so I wouldn't pin 30-52.on him (not saying anyone is). How many years did Jordan play in Washington? 2? 3? (Not that I'd hold those years against him--- though again, no Pippen or Phil there, either), The Bulls team Jordan went to was pretty bad----I don't think anyone would argue... but I do have to admit that 3 years in and still no "winning season" is kind of surprising.

only takes a minute wrote:

Chicago was 38-44, 30-52, and 40-42 Jordan's first 3 years in the league before Pippen got there. They won their first title in Jordan's 7th and Pippen's 4th year. It was Phil Jackson's 2nd year with the team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/

[quote]M. Corbin wrote:

5) Jordan's non-Pippen/ non-Phil teams were 154-170 in Jordan's games with no winning seasons in any of the 5 years. For what it's worth.

[quote]M. Corbin wrote:

Kobe Bryant is no different. Under .500 without other great talent.

I think everybody realizes NO great player was going to Cleveland when Lebron was there. They always ended up with a B or C tier guy that they overpaid. Larry Hughes and Mo Williams are certainly not going to make the hall of fame.

Cleveland was 17-65 the year before they got Lebron. They then went 35-47, 42-40, 50-32, 50-32, 45-37, 66-16, 61-21.

349-225. The year after Lebron left Cleveland was back to 19-63.

Larry Bird never had to worry about talent. Even in his rookie year they were stacked with great veterans but if you look at 88-89 when he was injured, the team won about 20 less games than the other years.

I honestly have to look into Kobe's deal. Seems people either love him or hate him. So, we've established this:1) the Cavs' average record the year before and after LeBron was 18-64.2) the Cavs in the "LeBron years" averaged just under 50 wins per yearFolks who love advanced metrics would call this "anecdotal evidence". I would call it "fairly easy dots to connect".It's not as scientifically quantifiable perhaps as other sets of data-----but you'd have to be purposely sticking your head in the sand not to see the impact James had on that franchise's winning and losing.I am not a LeBron fan nor am I a hater. I'm too old for that. I am just trying to assess him. I'm admittedly not entirely sure where to go. On 1 hand, he clearly raised the Cavs from being a dreg to a contender. He didn't need another special player to do that, either. He played on a few sub-par to mediocre teams, but how old was he? On the other hand, when they lost to the Mavs in the Finals----he looked LOST at some of the most critical moments. It is still inexplicable to me. It almost looked a like really badly acted movie script. I was watching like "what???!!?". I think everybody was----except maybe LeBron's biggest supporters might try to 'block it out' and deny---it was so ugly. LeBron was no kid, then. It seemed/ seems inconceivable that he could be caught frozen like that... and I don't even know what it was/ maybe he wasn't frozen... but what was he then? He looked sick. One of the weirdest things going on with an elite star in a championship that I can remember. The other thing is what I consider absurdly liberal ball handling rules that any reasonable person would acknowledge GREATLY benefit offense. The hopping and the extra step(s) are even at a level that stands out in a league that has always been goofy with rule enforcement.It's not LeBron's fault. It ain't cheating if they don't call it. It is a new NBA. But to my lament, it makes it impossible to compare LeBron's offensive game to anyone from past eras. And I think that's a shame. He's an incredible player in today's NBA. I just wish I could see him in a league that didn't that stuff. Frankly, I don't think he needs the help and the NBA, is actually hurting his historical legacy by dumbing down the rules. Like putting training wheels on bikes for the Tour de France. Everyone who doesn't need them looks like a jerk for having them. Think Olympic swimmers with floaties on. I think LeBron would adjust to not being allowed to hop and take the extra steps (and once in a while he gets called for steps---which is the weirdest thing), but does them because he's allowed to and it just skews things. I will look more at the Celtics' winning with Bird stuff, though quite a few people have already gotten into it.

M. Corbin wrote:

On the other hand, when they lost to the Mavs in the Finals----he looked LOST at some of the most critical moments. It is still inexplicable to me. It almost looked a like really badly acted movie script. I was watching like "what???!!?". ]

I've watched Lebron since high school. I have 2 theories about that final. The first is that Spoelstra is the stupidest coach in the league and still thought that Wade was the guy. The team brought in a terrible washed up Mike Bibby to initiate the offense when they had they best already in Lebron. If you watched most of the sets, Lebron stood by the sidelines while the rest of the team ran some intricate play until about 8 seconds on the clock when Lebron would get the ball about 22 ft from the basket. They ran this play over and over either turning the ball over or ending with a bad shot. Lebron was even asked in an interview after the Philly series about being used as a decoy instead of being involved more and he said he was just doing what the coaches tell him.

My other theory is that the league paid Miami off to make sure Dirk got his ring. While it's been obvious for years the league fixes the games to always keep them close and make more money, it is less obvious if they are fixing the games for certain teams to win or not win. (other than the Lakers over Boston charade in 2010).

I went down to Miami to watch Lebron a couple games in the middle of the season and was shocked by how ignorant the people there were about Lebron. Even the announcers doing the games for tv (Tony Fiorentino and Eric Reid) had no clue about how good LeBron was especially in regard to all the little things that aren't in the stats. They still regarded it as Wade's "team" and Lebron was overhyped.

Of course after this debacle, the next year the Heat offense looked exactly like the Cavs with Lebron taking over the team and running the show to a title.

Super Jay Five wrote:

Yes, "basketball people" might say Jordan is the best but who does just about EVERY top player (Wilt, Jordan, Durant, West, Magic etc.)talk about? LARRY BIRD! The fans may talk about Jordan but the PLAYERS talk about Bird! In other words the players respected Jordan but they were AFRAID of Bird!

Ummm...watch. Just watch.

to end the discussion here is THE top 7

1) Jordan

2) L James

3) Hakeem

4) Oscar Robertson

5) Wilt

6) Larry

7) B Russell

I'd have to watch the series again in order to swear to this-----but I honestly don't recall James being frozen out by his own team only to have the ball dumped in his lap with the shot clock winding down. I recall James having the ball and giving it up or settling for too many deep shots. I remember being frustrated with James' refusal to play in the paint more. I recall him playing "hot potato" with the ball 25 feet from the goal a lot. It was strange to see.

[quote]M. Corbin wrote:

I remember being frustrated with James' refusal to play in the paint more. I recall him playing "hot potato" with the ball 25 feet from the goal a lot. It was strange to see.[quote]more observations... wrote:

/quote]

It was a set play they ran continuously. Lebron still shot 47.8% from the field but only took 15 shots/game instead of the usual 20 or more. The biggest difference was that he only attempted 3.3 FT per game compared to a historical average of 8-9.

In the Boston series that season, he shot a lower 47.2% from the field but took 23.6 per game and averaged 8.8 FT/game.

The following year against Oklahoma when they won the title, he took the EXACT same amount of shots as the Boston series the year before and made the exact same number of shots (51-108). He took 4 more FT so his average was 9.2/game.

Pretty clear that he was just as efficient as the two other series where he played "great" but in the Dallas series he was taken out of a position to draw fouls and get his normal shots. Unless somebody writes a book, it may always be a mystery of why that occurred.

What's even more amazing is if you go back to 2007 when the cavs took out Detroit and Lebron had that monster game 5 scoring 48 points. The first 5 games of that series Lebron was 50-107 from the field which is only one attempt and make from the other two series mentioned above. He went to the line 8/game. I took out game 6 because LeBron only had 11 FG attempts but he was getting fouled all the time and had 19 FT attempts. If you add those in he was 53-118 but 9.8 Ft/game.

You must be young, because you never saw all these guys play live. Unfortunately, I'm old, and I did see all these guys. Besides being young, you're foolish: a top seven list without Magic, without Kareem--insane, childish. Jordan is the greatest player ever. Period. He brought it every single night, especially in the playoffs. But Bird was magical, and is surely top 10, maybe even top seven. Anyone who has any doubts, watch this, and watch the Atlanta Hawks reaction at 5:04:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto2_oYVs0I#t=395

XY wrote:

to end the discussion here is THE top 7

1) Jordan

2) L James

3) Hakeem

4) Oscar Robertson

5) Wilt

6) Larry

7) B Russell

To end the thread here is the top 10 alphabetically:

K. Abdul-Jabbar

L. Bird

K. Bryant

W. Chamberlain

L. James

M. Johnson

M. Jordan

H. Olajuwon

S. O'Neal

B. Russell

Honorable Mentions:

E. Baylor

T. Duncan

J. Erving

K. Malone

M. Malone

O. Robertson

J. West

kobe klanker shouldn't even be in the top 20

most selfish player in the history of the nba that only reached the scoring he did by bullying his teammates into letting him take all the shots

We used to watch a guy named Dominique Wilkins who was known as a "gunner" or "ball hog". kobe klanker is the Dominique Wilkins of this generation. He represents everything that is wrong in how to play the game of basketball.

Even Jordan would agree that Kwame Brown is the GOAT, that's why he drafted him.

Even Jordan would agree that Kwame Brown is the GOAT, that's why he drafted him.

Even Jordan would agree that Kwame Brown is the GOAT, that's why he drafted him.

Pointing Out the Obvious wrote:

Super Jay Five wrote:

Yes, "basketball people" might say Jordan is the best but who does just about EVERY top player (Wilt, Jordan, Durant, West, Magic etc.)talk about? LARRY BIRD! The fans may talk about Jordan but the PLAYERS talk about Bird! In other words the players respected Jordan but they were AFRAID of Bird!

Ummm...watch. Just watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wcr3PR3AQwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5Iwe1evGx0

Instead of wasting time watching video of "Magic Johnson" (look at interviews of him back in the early eighties and he is a DIFFERENT PERSON) look at high lights of Larry Bird like the one on YouTube "Larry Bird the Best Ever". He makes more fantastic passes in that one six minute video than Jordan did his ENTIRE CAREER!

Of course, there is always the option to simply conclude that LeBron James played poorly. And that it was his own fault. However, if one wishes to entertain that it was indeed the coach's fault via sabotage----there is also the option to believe that a greater player would not have allowed it to happen.

more observations... wrote:

[quote]M. Corbin wrote:

I remember being frustrated with James' refusal to play in the paint more. I recall him playing "hot potato" with the ball 25 feet from the goal a lot. It was strange to see.[quote]more observations... wrote:

/quote]

Pretty clear that he was just as efficient as the two other series where he played "great" but in the Dallas series he was taken out of a position to draw fouls and get his normal shots. Unless somebody writes a book, it may always be a mystery of why that occurred.

Can anyone recommend a highlight reel of Jordan's passing? His career average for assists isn't that far below Bird's, yet Bird's highlight films always have tons of unbelievable passes------and a highlight clip I just watched of Jordan contained exactly ONE pass... I've been told that Bird's passes led to easy baskets for teammates and that a lot of Jordan assists we're kick outs that required a teammate to make a farther shot/ harder shot. I've heard the most difficult/ impressive part of the typical Jordan assist was the shot the teammate had to make and not the pass----whereas with Bird's assists the PASS was the impressive thing and the teammate's shot was the easy part. I'm trying to see how true this is. And, despite the number of assists Jordan has been credited with-----I just can't find evidence that his passes were highlight material. Jordan's highlight are a lot of uncontested dunks and acrobatic lay ups in traffic. No passes.

Super Jay Five wrote:

Instead of wasting time watching video of "Magic Johnson" (look at interviews of him back in the early eighties and he is a DIFFERENT PERSON) look at high lights of Larry Bird like the one on YouTube "Larry Bird the Best Ever". He makes more fantastic passes in that one six minute video than Jordan did his ENTIRE CAREER!

I too have never seen a highlight reel of Jordan's passing and tend to think it is because he was NOT A GOOD PASSER (many team mates complain about his lack of passing). I have NO IDEA why Jordan has such a high assist average per

game because he rarely threw a pass as I remember. Anyhow the things I get when watching Bird high lights are these #1 He was probably the BEST passing forward EVER (and only a few guards were better). #2 The NBA was a FAR better, tougher, smarter, more competitive league than it is now. #3 Bird was an UNBELIEVABLE shooter! #4 He was probably the smartest player (at least on the court) to ever play the game. #4 If he was black all the people who say Jordan was the greatest would say Bird was!

What you are looking for is flash, not substance. Who gives a rat's ass how spectacular an assist looks? Two points is two points.

Most of Jordan's assists were decidedly UNspectacular. They consisted of him breaking down the defense off the dribble, having 3 or 4 defenders converge on him and him kicking the ball out to a teammate for an uncontested mid-range jumper. The pass itself is not brilliant. The play is. And the result is two points, which is all that really matters.