Lydiard/Wetmore Talk Recap

A few more from last night:

In his comments about Lydiard's coaching genius, Wetmore remarked, "I'm lucky enough to recruit from all over the nation, Lydiard turned young men in his neighborhood into Olympic champions."

Lydiard commenting on American training methods:

"Your intervals (rest between track efforts) are too short."

Other comments:

"Pure honey is the best for carbohydrate loading before competitions."

"Bill Squires is the best coach America has ever had."

"It only takes 4-5 weeks to develop anaerboc capacity to maximum. Why start 15 weeks before the race starts."

"Don't run the mileage for the sake of a weekly quota: listen to your "inner coach."

"If not recovered from after an anaerobic session after 48 hours, don't do another anaerobic workout--give yourself one more recovery day." He commented on the relationship that Steve Scott had with his coach.

Wetmore responded something like this, "Coaches should write their plans in pencil...the biggest mistake is to be inflexible in your plan by writing it in pen."

little red,

it's all in how you do it. For beginners, after they've got a little running in them, they can do a few minutes of LT and if they do a race, subtract the race distance/time/effort from the workout during the week.

drop intensity when you bump, once you're established at hte new volume you can bring it back up.

As they increase training volume, volume of intensity can go up. If you keep a rule of now more than ~15% of the week can be hard (including ALL running), you limit the risk of injury or burnout. If they're runnign a 30mi week, they have ~4.5mi of hard running they can do. When they're training more, years later, like 60mi weeks, that allows for 9mi of hard running.

If you keep everything as a percent of their totla volume, the kids will be fine.

here is a sample peak week schedule:

peak week

Sunday - 16mi run

Monday - 8a-3p school, 20min warmup 16x60m w/ 340m jog, 20min cooldown (9mi, probably 2hr workout)

Tuesday - 8a-3p school, 20min warmup, 6x1mi w/ 60s rest, 20min cooldown

Wednesday - 6:30am 45min easy, 8a-3p school, 60min easy

Thursday - 8a-3p school, 20min warmup 20x200m @ 1500m pace w/ 200m@90s rest, 20min cooldown

Friday - 60min easy

Saturday - 2mi flat, 4mi up Mtn., 4mi down, 4mi flat.

Total: 80.5mi

miles @ intensity: 13.1

percent of week @ intensity: 16.3%

Overall, the week has relatively little intensity.

Sunday is long, but not high intensity. It can't be because they won't be able to do much for the rest of the week. That's the value of speed limits.

Monday is long, but very low intensity. They're at 400m effort for 8-10s and then jog for 2.5 min. Nothing big. It will make you sore the first few times you'll do it.

On Tuesday these most advanced kids are running ~40min at half-marathon/marathon effort (this is nothign new, remember we began with just a few minutes of broken up running).

On Wed. they have one double day (remember these are advanced kids; the swimmers do two a days for beginners) and everythign is very very easy.

Thursday is a big endurance workout, because it's long. They end up averagin slower than 8min/mi space, and their running for 30-4x's at 1500m effort with a 90s 100m jog. Very low intensity; it's when you either lengthen th einterval or shorten the rest that it starts becoming hard.

Friday is very easy running or a day of no running.

Saturday is a medium effort day, basically spending 6mi of easy flat running, 4mi of medium effort, uphill running and 4mi of very easy downhill running.

As far as racing, it's very taxing and shouldn't be done often. When you do race, subtract the race effort volume from the quality during the week.

Here's a question...

Can someone with about 18,000-20,000 miles in their legs over 8 years (average of about 45 miles a week), who took a long layoff (several years), come back a Lydiard Disciple (run 80-100 miles a week in singles with 4 month base periods, 2 month speed periods- 2x a year) and run at or near their fullest potential within 4 years (age 30)?

age 30 at the end of the 4 years. layoff from college graduation til 26...

sure. it will just take time to reawken your capilaries and start rebuilding mitochondria.

little red wrote:

That sounds good but looking at number's doesn't tell the whole story. Lydiard is right when he says most high schoolers do too much anearobic work. For most kids to get aerobically strong at that age they just need to limit the hard sessions and racing.If they could stay healthy and build up to 60 miles a week with no workouts, they would do fine and be ready fo college. But the kid who can run 35 miles a week with 2 repeat sessions and a race each week... but who can still go out and run 10 miles easy under 5:30 pace...then that kid would just be holding him self back if he did high mileage with out a lot of sessions on the track for a good part of the year.

Little Red you are mixing the periodization here. Using a Lydiard approach, you would not be running track workouts, or even fartlek during your marathon phase. If you do build up to your maximum, whether it is 60, 80, 100 or 140 miles per week, you will NOT be doing anaerobic work, just distance.

Where people get hurt is pushing the envelope of training, running 80 mile weeks while slipping in a few mile repeats or some fartlek. If you just run mileage and build up to your maximum mileage by "listening to your inner coach" you will be fine. Most of us do NOT listen, however. We instead push to hard. When Arthur mentioned that Snell's first run over thier standard 22 mile route took him 3:15 as a 19 year old, but as a 20 year old he was running 2:05-10 and talking the entire run, he is simply saying you have to start where you are, do the aerobic work for as long as you can. Then add the other parts to develop strength (hills) and speed (sprint type drills) then do anaerobic work with a goal of maximizing your ability to handle oxygen debts and prepare to race. Repeat this pattern for a few years and you WILL reach performances you never dreamed possible. There is no magic pill. It is all simply hard work.

The high school runner who can cruise a 10 mile run in 55 minutes on 35 mpw with anaerobic work and a race is NOT training for the long term. He is not developing an aerobic base that will take him to running 20 miles at sub 6 pace in 2 to 3 years. He is getting his payback during that same season. If you want to be an Olympian, or a National Champion for that fact, you have to lay out a stair-step plan to get you there, just like the one powerpoint slide pointed out. It is a progressive program. Arthur told me that it usually takes 3-5 years to get close to your maxmimal potential. High School programs do not get kids early enough to do that, colleges barely do.

In the US scholatic world, the time do to your aerobic phase is June-July-August and December-January-February. A freshman could start out with 40 mpw in the summer, 45-50 in that winter, begin his/her sophomore summer with 50-60, and be running 80 mpw in single runs by thier senior year. They will be progressing, they will be achieving results as one would expect. It works. You also need a coach who can inspire and educate the runners. Arthur repeatedly said, "if you tell runners WHY they should be doing the work, they are more willing to do it". Sure there will be runners who will NOT be willing to do it. They will either quit the program or fall behind the runners who are willing to do the work to be the best they can.

Glenn

Didn't Lydiard say in one of his lectures to just go out and run the mileage and not worry about buildup?

No Lydiard says start out by running out 10 minutes turn around and run back 10 minutes. If you get to where you started you ran the right pace. If you don't get back you started to fast, if you have to go past the start to get in 10 minutes you started to slow. Every other day you add 5 minutes to your running time. Hence a hard-easy approach.

Glenn,

Interesting ... Mrs. CO-Runner and I were having the discussion about whether Snell and others held down full time jobs this morning. I felt like they did have jobs and did the running "on the side".

"Can you imagine being a late 30 something year old, working in a shoe factory by the day, delivering milk in the early am and still running 70-250 miles per week?"

Nope ;-)

what about someone who has been near this mileage before, and has taken about a year layoff with just off and on running. What would their buildup need to be like?

unknown_poster wrote:

what about someone who has been near this mileage before, and has taken about a year layoff with just off and on running. What would their buildup need to be like?

It would be like this....pick the race(s) you want to race well at. Count back 2 weeks for racing phase, 6 weeks of coordination training, 4 weeks of anaerobic work and 4 weeks of hills. Now figure out how many weeks you have between now and that date. Go out and start running miles comfortably-hard, (Arhtur told me that when you finish your runs you should be able to say "I could have run farther, maybe a 1/2 mile, or I could have run faster, say 5-10 seocnds per mile, but I would not have wanted to do both".) Give yourself a few weeks to see how much you can handle NOW. Increase mileage 10-15 percent for each run each week. I say each run, because if you are running say 50 miles per week with a long run of 12 miles, adding all 5-6 miles to your long run could wipe you out, so increase each run until you get them to where time (as in life, you know, work, school, and relationships) or energy says it is enough, then allow the runs to stay at that level and increase the other runs. Remember, Arthur's line "Train, don't Strain". Progress toward the most miles you can before you HAVE to begin your other periods of training.

my $.02.

Glenn

...and patience, that's what I need.

>>>That's one thing Lydiard is wrong about...he thinks americans are the same as the Kenyans and can do steady long runs at a young age. There not the same and if you give most americans age 12-18 a diet of long steady runs they will break down and get injured.

One difference is that the young Kenyans kids used to run purely for fun, like a kid would kick a soccer ball around with his friends in the park. While supposedly running to school they could stop for a walk when they feel like it, it's unstructured, fun. Some school distances could be 8-10 miles from home, others may have been 1-3 miles. It's their culture, thus part of they're lifestyle. And what's helpful, they are at altitude. On the other hand, getting a HS athlete to run alot takes a structured program, that little element of fun disappears (although they still may enjoy it)so that "chore" element may comes into it. It's not in the culture to run for fun, hence not that many will want to do it. Somewhere the approach has to be different. That approach is up ot the individual and their level of committment.

A short piece about Lydiard's talk on boulderrunning.com

http://www.boulderrunning.com/

Glenn

I know the lydiard method and it's periodization, I have coached a few people succesfully using it. What I meant is there is some people, not most who don't need to use that system of only 5 weeks of anearobic work.

getting back to that kid who can run 55 for 10 miles off of 35 miles a week. Trust me, he will have no problem running 20 milers under 6min pace when his system is ready for it. He will probably be a damn good marathoner once he gets out of college after 4 good years of mileage.

another point is even in most states the longest these kids race for is 15 min during cross and 9min in track. So theres no point to hold some one back from his potential, by letting him on the track for only 5-6 weeks. Just look at the best high schoolers, they do more then 5-6 weeks of the hard stuff. Again I am not talking about the general population, that's my whole argument.

I am a 1st timer at the Lydiard program. I started the build-up toward 100 mile weeks with the 34 mile week at the beginning of Nov. and will hit the 100 mile week the week after next. I should also mention that my running had been hit and miss over the last 2 yrs because of various things.

Now, I am planning on a May 1st marathon. If I follow the program fully I would have to start the hill phase the beginning of Feb. That means only a month and a half of 100 mile weeks for the base phase. If you count (and I am hesitent to) the assent phase that is 3 months of aerobic work.

So, with only a month and a half of 100 mile weeks would it be more bennificial to cut the hill phase for this cycle and get an extra month of aerobic work in before starting the anarobic phase in March or should I do the hill phase? Remember, I'm targeting for a May 1 marathon.

Anyway, that question has been bugging me for a while and now seems to be the time to ask it.

read "Train Hard Win Easy"

first - many Kenyans ran to school because they were afraid of being punished if they were late, not because it was fun.

second - many of the successful Kenyans did not run to school or run much at all until well after puberty, so running while young cannot explain all Kenyans' success

I cannot agree that there is anyone who BENEFITS from more anaerobic work. If they SEEM to do well, it is only due to their natural ability, with less anaerobic work, they would be better. That is the issue. There is NO ONE who benefits from MORE anaerobic work. Studies show that time and again. But us Americans, we seem to like to show how tough we can run anaerobic workouts. Then when our runners cannot hold a candle to the rest of the world we blame it on tv, soccer and video games. We just are not training our runners well. They need aerobic ability, not more speed. When Snell made his presentation about needing more aerobic work to the USTAF, they said no, they need more speed. You were at the presentation last night. When, Snell, or Viren, or Halberg took off, no one was capable of going with them. It was not their speed, it was their endurance and stamina. We do not develop our athletes aerobically, we are to worried about the meet schedule and not the athletes.

Glenn

>>second - many of the successful Kenyans did not run to school or run much at all until well after puberty, so running while young cannot explain all Kenyans' success.

That wouldn't surprise me. I've seen a number of athletes over time take up running at 16 or beyond and be successful as they haven't spent their early years training hard an immature,still developing body. The peak of an athlete is usually between 26-30 so that still provides for many years of running.

>>read "Train Hard Win Easy"

I started reading ages ago but before I got into it someone "knicked" the book and I've never seen it since.