sub 26 XC 8k

21:50 is good, but it isn't useful. you shouldn't run faster than LT for tempo runs because all it does is make you more tired without added benefits. keep the LTs runs around LT pace, which is probably 5:35ish for you. 5:40 is better than 5:30 if 5:35 is your actual LT pace.

how have your other tempos been? how does the 21:50 compare to the others? you could just list times/distance, along with any useful excuses like hilly course, hot day, etc.

for example, you have you done on the 6 mile tempos? any longer ones? you gotta do over 4 miles if you arent now

5k: 16:17 nice road course flat (7/13) first hard running for xc training

4 mile tempo: 22:08 ran it harder than I should have (7/21)

4 mile tempo: 23:12 was feeling way off before I started the workout (7/25)

4 mile tempo: 22:57 felt bad before I started but not terrible (7/30)

4 mile tempo: 21:50 felt okay before hand but ended up feeling pretty good after my warm up. Would have been more comfortable had I not eaten dinner 45 minutes before hand.

All these tempos have been on a pretty flat road to gain rhythm. I did some of my easy run too fast during the 7/22-7/29 which messed me up. When I backed off a little I ended up feeling a lot better.

I understand your point about doing some 6 mile tempos and I agree. However, I am trying to get back into reasonable shape first. It is also difficult for me to focus on running at a reasonably fast or race pace at longer distances. This is why I have started with 4 mile tempos. Also I feel that it will take longer to recover from a 6 mile tempo. And furthermore, running 4 mile tempos allows me to run much closer to my desired end goal of 5:12 pace for 5 miles. If I do a 6 mile tempo I would have been running 5:50 pace or somewhere close to that a few weeks ago. Before your post I was thinking about doing a 5mile tempo in a few days with a time around 27:40ish

I was wondering if sub 26 8k would be a reasonable goal for me this year. I'm an incoming freshman to a d2 school. I have been running 70 miles a week all between 6:45-7:10 mostly sub 7 pace. My log runs have been 15+ miles and are expected to get longer. My coach does not allow me to do any speed work besides strides twice a week. PRs 1600:4:34 3200:9:41 5K(xc):15:47 and I ran a 5k yesterday: 16:26(rolling hills, high grass and lose rocks). Is it possible for me to go sub 26?

Completely possible. But the biggest thing to remember is that you stay healthy. I had nearly identical PR's as you can I ran very poorly freshman year due to injuries and not taking care of the little things.

Try Hard Go Far wrote:

I'm currently in a period of adjusting to about 60mpw and I am working on getting it up around 65mpw.

Workng on getting it up around 65? What's to work on? If you're already at 60, add 1 mile to each of your non-tempo runs. 65 miles.

Over the past few weeks I've been transitioning to two 4mile tempos per week and a 13mile long run. Eventually I'll up the long run to at least 14 and will probably add a mile to one of the tempos. I've been putting a lot of stress on my body from this transition and am probably only in 27:20 shape currently.

A lot of stress? Then you're training too hard and not eating and sleeping enough (some combination). If you really did 55 mpw last year, then you should be all beat up by doing 60mpw right now.

Yes a for a bit I was training to hard and not sleeping enough. Part of this was due to moving to the suburbs of Nashville which is a lot hillier and a lot hotter and more humid than I'm used to. I have also increased the quality of my mileage by increasing the pace by an average of 15 seconds for every mile I run roughly. Furthermore, 55mpw was a big jump for me last year since I had previously been running about 40mpw prior to last summer. Not to mention my aerobic capacity wasn't where it should have been at the end of track season so after taking two weeks off, I was reasonably out of shape.

Try Hard Go Far wrote:

I have also increased the quality of my mileage by increasing the pace by an average of 15 seconds for every mile I run roughly.

Don't do that.

The "quality" concept is a red herring, ESPECIALLY for summer training. It's better to do 70 mpw at your old pace than 50mpw at your "quality" pace.

NESCACalum wrote:

The "quality" concept is a red herring, ESPECIALLY for summer training. It's better to do 70 mpw at your old pace than 50mpw at your "quality" pace.

true dat

for example, my average paces are slower than last summer, but i'm doing about 15-20 more mpw

I disagree, once I make the d1 team I will be doing my easy runs at around 6:20 pace almost all the time at the close to the same mileage I'm doing. I'm also doing 5mpw more than I did last year and I'm only running easy pace at 6:45ish roughly which already is pretty slow.

Try Hard Go Far wrote:

I disagree, once I make the d1 team I will be doing my easy runs at around 6:20 pace almost all the time at the close to the same mileage I'm doing. I'm also doing 5mpw more than I did last year and I'm only running easy pace at 6:45ish roughly which already is pretty slow.

Huh?

1. Where did you come up with those numbers?

2. Why do you think those paces should have any relevance to your summer training?

Try Hard Go Far wrote:

I disagree, once I make the d1 team I will be doing my easy runs at around 6:20 pace almost all the time at the close to the same mileage I'm doing. I'm also doing 5mpw more than I did last year and I'm only running easy pace at 6:45ish roughly which already is pretty slow.

don't believe that. they may end their runs with some 6:20ish miles but they won't average that.

whenever i run with 24-25 minute 8k guys, we start around 7:20s for a couple miles, then run about 6:50 for most of the run, then maybe 6:30 or faster at the end, for a 10-12 mile run.

don't train at the pace you want to run, train at the pace you can run.

I have to agree with the OP, easy runs at my school average between 6:15-6:25. yes we start slow like 7:00 min pace put we progress well every mile.

anyway my training has been going great, consistently putting down 70+ mile weeks with just a quality long run and strides, was able to run a controlled 26:58 5 mile. I really can wait till I start some real quality workouts. As for the issue of stress I pretty much have it made over here in texas, I have the worlds easiest job as a lifeguard for an indoor pool...so I basically sit all day and hydrate. anyway your training looks great man keep it up!

Yeah that's a pretty relaxed job I guess, but I bet lifeguarding gets pretty boring sometimes. Anyways nice job on the training! How valuable are strides? I rarely if ever do strides and I feel like they aren't that helpful and just help you get into speed shape a little faster. I'm not really sure. What are everyone's thoughts on strides?

NESCACalum wrote:

Try Hard Go Far wrote:

I have also increased the quality of my mileage by increasing the pace by an average of 15 seconds for every mile I run roughly.

Don't do that.

The "quality" concept is a red herring, ESPECIALLY for summer training. It's better to do 70 mpw at your old pace than 50mpw at your "quality" pace.

I disagree. Adamantly.

After years of little improvement despite substantial increases in extremely slow mileage, I gave high intensity training a shot. Since then I have cut over two minutes off my 5k in two seasons.

I think different approaches work for different people. In general I've found that if you train hard, either by increasing mileage, increasing intensity, or some combination, you'll likely improve.

30:45XC1978 wrote:

You should be doing 90-110MPW unless your body cannot take it. Thats base building. Not 65 or 70. Close fast and keep splits and CR's for those splits (IE, 1.0 to go, 2.5 to go) if you do not have a GPS watch. Also, most GPS watches are off so add back on average 3-4 seconds per mile to what the GPS watch says. That means a 5:00 last mile is probably 5:03 or 5:04.

I did 100MPW before my junior year in NCAA X-C and broke 25:00 for 5 Miles regularly and 31:00 for 10K. The next year I ran 50MPW over the summer and did not break 25:30/31:45 until November. By then it was too late to think I had a good year.

Get as many miles in as you can stay healthy for.

This is the most important post in the thread. You need to run 100 miles a week to run sub 26. 60 or 70 will not cut it.

I was a 26:15 8ker for 2 years. One summer I put in 100-100 mpw every single week. During the season every single week was 100+ also except for a small 1 week taper before my peak race.

Results were: 24:40 8k and 30:40 10k.

Sub 26 is all about strength. Sub 25 is all about more strength. RUN MILEAGE.

I'm 18 and an incoming freshman. I'm not going to run 100mpw and suddenly add 40miles per week every week to what I normally run. That's just plain stupid. YES I realize higher mileage is good if you are running quality mileage. 100mpw at 7:30 pace IS NOT going to make stronger than 60mpw at 6:40 pace with 2 solid tempos per week. Going up to 100mpw would most likely result in getting a stress fracture and/or burning out and wrecking my legs. Perhaps as a junior or a senior 3-5 years down the road I MIGHT approach 100mpw, but certainly not right now. I believe in a steady buildup of mileage not just running as much mileage as I possibly can and hoping to not get injured.

Anyways I get a few responses on my question about strides and how important they are for both 800/1500 training and for 8k/10k xc training? Thanks in advance for the replies.

I jumped up from 50 to 100 in one season and was fine.

Injuries heal, slowness doesn't.

Those that claim that you have to run 100 miles to be a sub 26 8k runner are telling a lie. I had a friend who as a freshmen ran a 25:18 off of 70 miles a week. Then again people react differently to different types of training. I still don't recommend doing a huge jump in mileage like you said it can lead to injuries.

You seem like you have the right approach to me. Injuries heal (usually) but they cost you valuable training time or seasons of racing. More mileage means more pounding, which means a higher risk of injury. A steady buildup reduces both injury and burnout risk. And I ran sub-26 for 8k (after running barely under 27 the previous year) and averaged 60 miles a week last summer. It's certainly not impossible.

As for strides, I think they are a great, easy way to add speed in the midst of off-season base training. They improve your neuromuscular coordination (your sprint form improves, you become more energy efficient when closing races, you get faster).