Why the pissing contest on who is better? I agree that BOTH Cain and Baxter are Fantastic runners taking different evolutionary paths and may specialize in different events.
I wish both of them the absolute best! These are some good times for distance running in the US.
chicken man wrote:
the 30 sec. improvement should raise some eyebrows.
Yeah, an improvement in the 3K from 9:28 to 9:02 over a period of about 20 months is just too suspicious to ignore.
worst poster wrote:
This poster is correct.
People think Baxter is going to go to college and not be ridden like a rented mule? Get real.
You mean like Jenny Simpson and Emma Coburn?
Yup. Totally ruined them. Only made the Olympic Finals while in collge. Ruined just like Ritz and the Gouchers before them.
Assuming Sarah Baxter goes where many here think she should go.
Yeah i just hope Baxter can convince Cain to come to Oregon with her in 2 years. Imagine those 2 training together they would only get better and better. I'm sure the first day that the Oregon coaches can offer these 2 outstanding Ladies the Ducks will. Come to Track Town U.S.A. Baxter and Cain.
coach d wrote:
You mean like Jenny Simpson and Emma Coburn?
Yup. Totally ruined them. Only made the Olympic Finals while in collge. Ruined just like Ritz and the Gouchers before them.
Assuming Sarah Baxter goes where many here think she should go.
Sarcasm only works when your opinion has value. When it doesn't, and you operate from bad premises, you only look like an idiot.
There will always be relatively rare specimens who thrive in an otherwise adversarial environment. Duke is a great example, but it's not alone.
Ask Tera Moody, Allie McLaughlin and many, many others who ran under what's-his-name how THEY feel about the same program.
When Mary ran a 4:17 as a frosh all we heard is she would never run faster, 4:11 as a soph we heard the same! She has been breaking records for three yrs now. As for Jordan Hasay coming along slowly she was the XC national champion as a freshman and ran in the OT as a senior. She came around as fast as she could! Maybe now she's coming around slowly, it looked that way in NYC at Millrose when Mary came around her very fast on the last lap! You don't have to mark my words just look at the video!Sloop John B wrote:
lolllypopo wrote:Yeah, Sarah kicked Mary's bum in XC. Sarah is doing it right, coming along slowly (i.e. Jordan Hasay). Mary will be burned out or injured in a year or two. Mark my words.
100% agreed - Mary Cain's time in the spotlight is limited. Very quick crazy fast record breaking performances can't last forever. What goes up must come down.
Cain's PR is not over "half a minute" faster than Baxters. Can you do math? END of THREAD
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5121874&page=1#ixzz2Pv24QpJz
END of THREAD
We can only hope it will end
Sarah Baxter hasnt approched anything CLOSE to what Mary Cain has run on the TRACK
How about you SB Sychofants not posting til she gets within 10 seconds of Mary Cain at whichever you chose
800/1500/3200
Sarah Baxter TRACK resume
http://ca.milesplit.com/athletes/1699314-sarah-baxter
sooo, 2:13/4:34/9:45
If/When She runs one of those times, it'll put her on the same straightsway at least
Actual TIME/NOT your pure BS about her X-C Dominance or the Cain burn out factor. which serves only to detract from the fact that its TRACK Season and its ALL about the TIME
chicken man wrote:
Cain didn't go from some random HS coach, she ran 2:03 as a frosh under that guy, she had several years of hard training under that guy, the 30 sec. improvement should raise some eyebrows.
I'm shocked that Cain ran a 1:33!
Does anyone have the details?
ooops, should be Sycophants
This argument is so stupid. Baxter beat Cain in XC, in a VERY muddy race. That doesn't mean Baxter is faster, she's just stronger. Track is all about who is faster and Cain is faster no doubt! I mean she dropped a 59 for the final lap at the USA Indoor championships in the mile at altitude!
As for who's smarter, they both use their own tactics that works fine considering their ability. Baxter just front runs and runs her pace until everyone dies out. It's pretty smart considering she doesn't have much of a finishing kick. Cain on the other hand sits and uses her HUGE kick! NO DOUBT Cain can beat Baxter in a 2 mile! Baxter beat Cain because the mud completely drained the kick out of Cain.
And to the people that are saying that Baxter is under trained, the week before Mt SAC Invitational the Simi Valley coach mentioned that she was beating all of the guys on the team during the workouts! How is that under training?! She is clearly working as hard as Cain!
To put it in simple terms. Baxter is a strength runner, Cain is a speedster!
If you ask me, Cain can beat Baxter in ANY event, unless it's run in mud.
Jonnestrad wrote:
This argument is so stupid. Baxter beat Cain in XC, in a VERY muddy race. That doesn't mean Baxter is faster, she's just stronger.
Lol what. If you finish first, then you're faster. If she wasn't faster, then she would have lost. Being stronger has nothing to do with this. Strength refers to how close to your top end speed you can maintain. Has nothing to do with mud.
Above is the USATF Mile, if you top the video at 3:43
you'll see the clock reads 3:34.5, she ran 5:05.68, so her
last 600m was 1:31.2
Second fastest time in the US for Girls 600m
Mud had everything to do with it! So you're saying that Bernie Montoya (The guy that just got second at Arcadia's 3200m Invitational with an 8:47 and arguably the fastest miler in the nation) is slower than the 21 guys that beat him at NXN?! He's clearly faster than them.
Another example, Juan Gonzalez (Who just ran 8:54 at Arcadia) got 98th place at NXN. He's clearly faster than most people that beat him. Gonzalez actually beat De La Rosa (who got 2nd place at NXN) the week before NXN at the California state championship.
SO your statement "If you finish first, then you're faster" is completely incorrect in this case. The mud killed most of the speedsters.
jaspiuyr wrote:
Yep, running under Alberto at such a young age, she is doomed, sorry to say. But the truth.
Are people who say this honestly retarded or do they try to look stupid on purpose? Galen Rupp was coached by Salazar too and he is now arguably the best American runner ever and has an Olympic silver.
at arcadia, baxter ran in lane 2 for much of the race staying clear of any trouble. she was probably in the group for 2 laps or so. the other 6 laps she was running into the wind leading or sharing the lead on the outside, and was only on the rail the last 2 laps, maybe. she ran a good deal further than 3200 to stay out of trouble, and could afford to do so because she was the class of the field.
cain ran her fast times among others of like ability, where she could sit in the pack and run closer to the rail.
you can't take anything away from cain, her performances have been brilliant. that being said, the discrepancy between their two times is deceiving due to the conditions in which they ran their times.
alan webb
4/14/01 Arcadia: HS runners only: 4:01.81
5/27/01 Eugene: World class field: 3:53.43
converted to two miles, those times are equivalent to 8:42.3 and 8:24.2. just over 6 weeks a part.
it would be very difficult for baxter to dispatch cain over 3200m and i don't see it happening. but their times would be much closer to one another in a HS runner only contest, or if baxter were to jump into a world class field with cain in it as well. guessing cain over baxter by 10 seconds tops.
baxter does not need to improve from where her fitness is, so it really doesn't matter if she is running similar times to last year. if she can sustain her current fitness through college she will have some great results while getting a free education. whether or not she ends up running internationally has little meaning in comparison to the avenues running has already opened up for her.
You all do realize that you're all talking about a couple of 17-18 year old girls, right? Their athletic accomplishments are remarkable and they may well be the future of distance running for American women, but until they are women and not high school girls how about if they have some space.
Jonnestrad wrote:
Mud had everything to do with it! So you're saying that Bernie Montoya (The guy that just got second at Arcadia's 3200m Invitational with an 8:47 and arguably the fastest miler in the nation) is slower than the 21 guys that beat him at NXN?! He's clearly faster than them.
Another example, Juan Gonzalez (Who just ran 8:54 at Arcadia) got 98th place at NXN. He's clearly faster than most people that beat him. Gonzalez actually beat De La Rosa (who got 2nd place at NXN) the week before NXN at the California state championship.
SO your statement "If you finish first, then you're faster" is completely incorrect in this case. The mud killed most of the speedsters.
If they were faster, then they would have won. The people that beat them were running in the mud too so the mud is irrelevant. We're not talking about a mile or a two mile. We're talking about xc. If Cain was faster than Baxter at xc then she would have won, but she didn't.
Hey Pervs wrote:
You all do realize that you're all talking about a couple of 17-18 year old girls, right? Their athletic accomplishments are remarkable and they may well be the future of distance running for American women, but until they are women and not high school girls how about if they have some space.
They are already women
cccbc wrote:
Jonnestrad wrote:Mud had everything to do with it! So you're saying that Bernie Montoya (The guy that just got second at Arcadia's 3200m Invitational with an 8:47 and arguably the fastest miler in the nation) is slower than the 21 guys that beat him at NXN?! He's clearly faster than them.
Another example, Juan Gonzalez (Who just ran 8:54 at Arcadia) got 98th place at NXN. He's clearly faster than most people that beat him. Gonzalez actually beat De La Rosa (who got 2nd place at NXN) the week before NXN at the California state championship.
SO your statement "If you finish first, then you're faster" is completely incorrect in this case. The mud killed most of the speedsters.
If they were faster, then they would have won. The people that beat them were running in the mud too so the mud is irrelevant. We're not talking about a mile or a two mile. We're talking about xc. If Cain was faster than Baxter at xc then she would have won, but she didn't.
I agree with Jonnestrad on this one. It's just physics...the explosiveness and rapid contraction that characterize fast twitch muscle fibers need resilient surfaces that will produce a reaction (like a bouncing ball). So fast twitch muscle fibers are more of a factor when running on a resilient surface and conversely less of a factor on a non-resilient surface (mud being almost non-resilient). So whatever advantage a runner with a high percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers has will be lost on a muddy surface. Mary Cain with a 55.74 400M shows that she has a good amount of FT fibers.
There are all sorts of XC surface conditions hard, soft, etc. NXN 2012 was very muddy...I have no doubt that on a firm surface the results would have been quite different. As pointed out Bernie Montoya vs. Sam Wharton is a good example:
Sam Wharton 1st (NXN) 22nd (Arcadia 3200)
Bernie Motoya 22nd (NXN) 2nd (Arcadia 3200)