Tianna Madison has always had good speed, she has always been a jumper/sprinter. Up to now she has basically been an 11.1 100m sprinter on a good day, good; that's good, but not good enough to make national teams for the USA. Tianna is a consistent 22"+ long jumper, which has been her ticket. With that said, I can see Tianna possibly making Olympic relay pool, but more importantly it will be interesting to how her new speed translate to the long jump.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Sanya will have her hands full with Montsho.
When you watch these races, as an athlete or ex-athlete, you can sort of sense who you would be comfortable going up against, and who is dangerous.
Right now, Sanya looks dangerous, for sure.
Montsho looks like the terminator.
I also expect to see Sanya on the podium, with a strong shot at gold if her health holds up.
Madison won't do anything in the 100m internationally, unless a miracle occurs with her form.
I actually am very impressed with Gatlin...very impressed. The guy feels it. RIGHT NOW, in February, he is in 9.90 shape, and this is a guy who seems to know how to train and taper throughout the season. "Peaking" for sprinting is a funny thing--it is such a tight race, that anything--like a crappy lunch, or a not-so-great night's sleep, can lead to that one error from which the race is unrecoverable.
Gatlin's advantage is that he is relaxed, and not stressed. His disadvantage is that his roided-up best still wasn't anywhere near Bolt, was only just about as good as Powell, and only the tiniest better than Blake, if at all.
In this run, Gatlin was, as sprinters say, "covering ground". I know it sounds simplistic, and maybe it is--but that is how you describe what is happening when you are really moving down the track. Something happens, there is a transformation--and Gatlin had it today, even though he didn't win the race to 60m. His weight distribution seemed terrific--a couple of tweaks, and he would have gone 6.42 in that race, even with his mediocre RT. Heck, even running the same race with a better RT would have given him 6.44-6.45
And it was a stress-free race for him, physically. He was running well within himself, controlled the whole way, no bad impact, smooth transition, continuous power development, using the biggest musculature he has to its greatest advantage.
I don't know when he started doping, but 2 years before his 9.77, he ran 9.85; I could absolutely see him going 9.85 again, which should get him into the Olympic final, which would be a great achievement for anybody, but especially for this guy.
I was very impressed with Gatlin--not on a global scale, but on a personal scale. Like last year, I actually hope that he does well.
I will be very surprised to see Montsho have the same type of year this year as she had last year. I am always skeptial of athletes from 3rd world countries like Botswan, who are no where to be found most of the year and shows up extremely race sharp running incredible times. The Jacaican ladies set the world on fire in '08/'09 and then IAAF/WADA forced Jamaica to to start an out of competition testing program and then they had a significant drop off in performances. Jamaica's Brigitte Foster was running mid-12.4s in the 100m hurdles in '08/'09 winning the Olympic gold medals and then just dissapperas. WADA in 2012 appears to finally be a step ahead of the cheaters or at least they are calling the their bluff. WADA is telling the cheaters that in 2012...bring it on.
Gay should run that second leg and some attempt be made at taking the stick esrly handing off late. I'm a firm believerr in trying to maximize the % of a 4x1 you're two fastest run. Just seems logical.
Gay on 2nd leg should work great. Trell-Gay-Dix-Gatlin... not bad, may actually be the best set up.
0bi wrote:
Gay on 2nd leg should work great. Trell-Gay-Dix-Gatlin... not bad, may actually be the best set up.
I like that team in that order, too, but I wouldn't be so quick to put Kimmons on leadoff, depending on what guys like Demps do outdoors; Salaam might make a good 5th man for the rounds.
Somebody has got to step up as 5th man, so that my man Patton doesn't get in. I love the guy, I think he is stand-up, as well as a terrific individual runner...but to the extent that I'm superstitious, he is cursed on the relay. I know it's an irrational belief, but whatever.
A couple of things here. I have no idea what kind of off season doping controls Botswana has in place. Montsho has been around for about 6 or 7 years and has always been 1. a very good 400 meter runner. 2. she has always been a very lean, muscular gal and 3. although she is a good runner on the circuit she has always buckled under the pressure at a major championship, although she had been in some finals and semi finals. This past year was a huge break through in terms of placement in meets. She is a consistent 50.xx runner and will drop a few sub 50s every season.
I am sorry track coach I am going to have to go against you on Madison. I think her issue is lack consistency. She has tremendous talent and she has a ton of speed but is very inconsistent. As a professional long jumper she has basically had 2 good meets. 2005 World Outdoor and 2006 World Indoor. As she has gotten faster, her marks have gotten worse. I think she has had trouble adjusting her speed to the runway and hitting the board. If she fixes this problem she will be dynamite.
old coach man--
I think that Madison should learn to run the 100m.
With this kind of a 60m, based on pure hate, there is so much room for improvement it is just crazy.
Even in her 60m, she could go 6.9-mid, which would be unbelievable, if she had better form.
What would be easier--teaching her the last 50m form of a 100m, or trying to work that extra speed into an already-inconsistent jumping technique?
I say try the 100m. Work on it--last 50m form, and some transitional form, at least enough to fix the huge glaring deficiencies she now has--and she would have a good shot at making the 100m final, and would be an invaluable addition to a relay team that will be in a tight battle. As it is, maybe she could run a powerful-enough 100 to run leadoff leg on the anchor.
Thoughts?
If I can have my two fastest sprinters on that second (attempt at early take/late release) and anchor leg ...great. Obviously it doesn't always work that way. Dix would be our best curve runner if Gay isn't there. As we know Gatlin has that speed endurance to come on.
The thing is the USA needs to be ready to take advantage of a Jamaica mishap. That's why I'd want to load up early with Gay to Dix. We can't best Jamaica all things being equal.
Kimmons has experience in that leadoff role, even if Demps or someone else beats him in the trials if he's in that final (telling us he's in shape) he's my leadoff man. The 4x1 is not the 100m.
Madison has already run 7.02 twice, 7.05, and 7.06. Her best sprinting season was 09 when she went 7.18 in and 11.09 outdoors. But in 09 tons of gals were beating her. Some of these same women are getting crushed by her now. I mean Madison and Pierre beat everyone by a wide margin the other day.
I dont know if her form was that bad. She stays very sturdy and upright and doesnt fall apart at the end (although it is only 60m, hard to fall apart). I havnt looked at prior years film but I am going to bet that she put form work on her priority list in the fall and now she is beginning to reap the benefits.
http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php?event_id=5616&do=videos&video_id=60327
If I were her I would train for both. In the next month I would travel somewhere and get a long jump A standard. She does not have one. Her speed is consistent with all of the sub 7.10s. Spend some time on the runway and get a proper mark. It sounds so simple because it is. She has never been this fast but also this consistent. I mean when you have run 7.06 +or- .04 5 or 6 times you have got to have an internal gauge saying "ok I am running at this rate" now when I step on the runway that gauge needs to say on every trip down the run way "to fast, to slow, or spot on" Capitalize on this consistency right now!
The beauty of the LJ/100 is that some of the training aspects are so similar
In the 100 who is there besides Jeter. Myers? Tons of girls running around 11 flat and Madison has to be close to the top. She has looked really good all winter.
I like watching the college girls run but I doubt many will make the 100finals. A&M, LSU and the other power houses run the piss out of these girls. I see dead legs by June 15. I honestly believe the professional gals do not have to worry about the college girls in the 100 this year.
[quote]old coach man wrote:
A couple of things here. I have no idea what kind of off season doping controls Botswana has in place. Montsho has been around for about 6 or 7 years and has always been 1. a very good 400 meter runner. 2. she has always been a very lean, muscular gal and 3. although she is a good runner on the circuit she has always buckled under the pressure at a major championship, although she had been in some finals and semi finals. This past year was a huge break through in terms of placement in meets. She is a consistent 50.xx runner and will drop a few sub 50s every season.
-----------------------------------
Perhaps you are right on Montsho being clean, and I know she has been a solid 50/51 sprinter for several years. But when I think of what it takes to produce a 49x WC gold medalists, it's hard to imagine what her setup is like in Botswana. I am sure Botswana does not have the infrastructure (coaches, trainers, facilities, etc.) to produce and more importantly maintain an athlete at that level. The top sprinters come from systems/factories like Jamaica, GB, Canada, Europe, Australia, Nigeria and the USA. Who is her coach, where does she train, does she have any college or Jr marks, why does she typically disappear for 6 months out of the year. How is it possible that she is always so race sharp; she has always been able to run as fast in her first race of the season as in her last.
With all of that said, I have absolutely zero knowledge that she isn't clean and I met her several year ago and unlike her tough exterior, she seems extremely sweet, soft spoken and lady-like. Perhaps I am making an unfair judgment, but I have seen these types of ducks before.
In terms of Madison, besides Marion Jones, she might be the fastest long jumper ever (the run up). A ‘full time’ long jumper who can run close to 7 flat in the 60, should be jumping 23 feet even with bad marks.
whoever the U.S. picks for the relay and whatever their order, they have got to practice the handoffs a lot. you know guys from Jamaica have been practicing their handoffs with the same guys for years. a lot of the relay is about the handoff, which is why you get countries with no sub 10 guys doing very well. and the U.S. has historically had a lot of problems with the handoff.
to speak up for ventolin, those three 60m enroute to 100m times do correlate very well with the double and subtract three standard. They come within .1 s. Where his argument is weak is in failing to differentiate between most 60m races, which are indoors and long before most sprinters peak, and outdoor 100m races, and between sprinters good at the 60m and those who are either good at both or good at the 100m but not as good as the 60m. And then there are those who run a great 60m enroute to 100m in the summer but do poorly indoors or don't compete. In the hurdles, we just saw David Oliver be well beaten, but come outdoors at 110mH that isn't too likely.
it is good to see someone with intelligence understands this
for a "perfect" 100m runner, the double 60m split - 3.00 off presumed ~ 0.12RT is usually no more than 0.01s out
if any further proof is needed :
bolt 9.58 ( rounded up from 9.57x where x is some 0.001s ) with 6.31 split with slowish RT of 0.146
if you adjust that RT to 0.12s, you get
<9.554 off <6.284 which with uncertainty of the 0.001s is spot on
the problem some of these poor thinkers have is believing just because you run fast, you are a "perfect" 100m guy
King Carl was GOAT with all his medals & broke wr many times ( 9.93 , 9.92 , 9.86 ) but coudn't run a proper 60m
tyson is modern equivalent
he can't run a proper 60m & does it all in last 40
for these lopsided guys, you use the reciprocal formula for what their 100m shoud be based on last 40m, if they coud run initial 60m as good as the last 40m
100m = 2*40m + 3.00
for tyson above :
9.71 with 6.39 off 0.144s
last 40m is 3.32s
adjust to 0.12s
<9.686 with <6.366 with last 40m of 3.32 unchanged
his 100m time if his 60m was on a par with his last 40m is
2*3.32 +3.00 = 9.64
his initial 60m ideally woud be
6.32s
his 60m is ~ 0.05s slower than it shoud be if he was a "perfect" 100m guy
similarly Carl had a finish of ~ 3.40 in one of his great runs
this indicates that if he couda run his initial 60m as good as the last 40m, he couda been a
~ 9.80 guy
but his handicap start limited him to 9.86
Gatlin makes me sick. Cheater Cheater Cheater.
If this was scandinavia he would have died of shame.
In America he is applauded.
Ventolin--
"for a "perfect" 100m runner, the double 60m split - 3.00 off presumed ~ 0.12RT is usually no more than 0.01s out"
A "perfect 100m runner" being, of course, one who fits your model.
"he can't run a proper 60m & does it all in last 40"
This assumes that there is some sort of "proper 60m"--i.e. one that conforms to your "perfect 100m runner". Just because some guys exhibit the types of performances that fit your model of "perfection" doesn't mean either that those guys are running the best 100m they could ever run, or that the guys who have an amazing last 40m don't have that only because of the deficit they leave in the first 60m.
"for these lopsided guys, you use the reciprocal formula for what their 100m shoud be based on last 40m, if they coud run initial 60m as good as the last 40m"
More evidence of the deficiencies in your "model", assuming some sort of "ideal" individual performance.
How do you know that Bolt wouldn't have gone .05 faster in the last 40m if he had gone .04 slower in the first 60m?
The answer is that you don't. Your model ignores the qualities that are specific to individual sprinters. While it may be useful as a training aid for psychological purposes, it is rubbish otherwise.
When your model can predict what the top 3 guys will run in a particular race to within .01 when all 3 times are combined, as I have just demonstrated that I can do, then we can talk.
What are your predictions for the top 3 times in Istanbul in the men's 60m, given who we know is going?
Or for the top 3 times in London this year in the 100m? Or for the top times achieved this coming year by any 3 individual 100m sprinters?
You have no idea. You will offer all sorts of qualifications of the limits and applicability of your method, the totality of which will amount to the fact that it isn't worth thinking about, except for abstract amusement.
And even then, it isn't very amusing.
I can't believe I wasted time on this.
Get off his back!
The ventolin 60-100m calculator is as good, if not better than most of the other calculators out there; there are always going to variables that straight can't account for.
There are altitude conversions; altitude affects athletes differently.
There are wind conversions; mass, wind direction and wind consistency have different affects.
There are many race performance predictors. I would imagine someone like Dixon, Coe or Webb's 800PR is a poor predictor of what they could do in a 10K. (Some over perform the math and some underperform.)
[I's ok if things don't alway add up.] I can show you Kenyans that defies all of the predictors of why they are so good, such as growing up at altitude, consistent running at a young age, V02max, etc. Btw, Kenya use to produce very good 400m runners.
Ventolin 60/100 calc, just like all of them, works most of the time, but there will always be variables and outliers. The conventional wisdom is that athletes who are very ballistic/explosive, can’t maintain. This holds true most of the time, which is what we are looking for in a calculator. Case in point: When Bolt ran 9.58, he probably broke the 60m record in route. The Barber twins can explode out of the blocks with the best in the world and could also run 50x in a 400m dash.
In terms of relays, you don't need relay coaches and a lot of technique training, becasue most elite U.S. sprinters know just about all they need to know. It is just a matter of practice. This is always going to be a problem because our pro athletes don't belong to the same teams and the only time they actually run as a relay is in the Penn Relays.
We had some consistent relay resultes in the late 80s to early 90s, (Mitchell, Cason, Lewis, Burrell, Heard, Marsh, Drummond); these guys knew each and some years, 3/4th of the USA 4x1 was the Santa Monica TC. All of Jamaica's top athletes belong to 2 clubs (Races/MVP) and they run several realys a year with each other. (Although, nowadays, they run fewer than they use to.) Practice, practice, practice and get to know each others tendencies at at full speed in pressure situations. Russian and European teams run several exhibitions relays together prior to and after their Olympic team is 'fully' picked. We alreay know who the 2-3 likely relay candidates will be, have these guys start doing twice a month baton exchange practices even with out knwoing for sure who tthe relay will be.
OK, somebody taking up for Ventolin...
Alright TrackCoach, how and when is Ventolin's "60-100m calculator" useful at improving either individual athletic performance, or the performance of some group of sprinters?
(Which, of course, are the ultimate goals of T&F)