Collective bargaining is a basic right of workers

drivel wrote:

I have to pay for 97% of the money I need for retirement. Teachers in Wisconsin are responsible for 0.2% of their pension. I'd say the Union workers are making out like bandits...

Teachers are no different than you. They forfeited raises for this pension. Take it away, fine, but retroactively go back and give them the raises to pay for it. Conversely, forfeit your pay/raises for a pension you "don't pay for".

drivel wrote:

I have to pay for 97% of the money I need for retirement. Teachers in Wisconsin are responsible for 0.2% of their pension. I'd say the Union workers are making out like bandits...

Dang, I work in Ohio and in 2 years I'll be contributing 13% of my paycheck to my pension fund - and people are still calling for removal of collective bargaining rights.

I guess this goes to show that the governors in these states aren't doing this in an attempt to balance their budgets - they're doing it to push an ideological agenda, period. A draconian one, for sure.

I'll just throw in my situation for an example.

I work in the private sector.

My wife is a teacher who recently earned a masters degree.

She made decent amount more than me at first.

We are on her insurance right now because it is better than my company but my previous company's benefits were better.

She has no control over her pay raises. Her pay scale determines her salary every year and it has been frozen the last two years.

I am completely free to move around to get more money or negotiate with my current employer.

I have passed her and I am pulling away.

I think her situation is decent, stable secure and has good benefits but she is locked in.

You really don't want to find more reasons to disincentivize people from becoming teachers while we complain about the quality of education.

asdgfh wrote:

According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a federal statistics-gathering agency, federal worker compensation in 2009 averaged $123,049, which was double the private-sector average of $61,051.

[/quote]

I'll go ahead a revise my answer from a few posts up.

According to the Census bureau, a federal statistics-gathering agency, government workers (local, state, and federal) make an average of $52,889 per year, based on government payrolls from March 2009.

You can find the data yourself for federal workers (http://www2.census.gov/govs/apes/09fedfun.pdf) and state and local workers (http://www2.census.gov/govs/apes/09stlus.txt).

Assuming your number for salary of private sector workers is correct, government workers make less than private sector workers.

Dropped my econ major wrote:

I'm probably missing something, but isn't collective bargaining just an extension of freedom of assembly?

I think that's right. It's just like all of the people who sell gasoline have a right to get together and agree on the price they will charge all of their customers for gasoline.

bmcpool strikes back wrote:

asdgfh wrote:

According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a federal statistics-gathering agency, federal worker compensation in 2009 averaged $123,049, which was double the private-sector average of $61,051.

I'll go ahead a revise my answer from a few posts up.

According to the Census bureau, a federal statistics-gathering agency, government workers (local, state, and federal) make an average of $52,889 per year, based on government payrolls from March 2009.

You can find the data yourself for federal workers (http://www2.census.gov/govs/apes/09fedfun.pdf) and state and local workers (http://www2.census.gov/govs/apes/09stlus.txt).

Assuming your number for salary of private sector workers is correct, government workers make less than private sector workers.[/quote]

You didn't read mine closely enough, you're talking salary. I'm talking about total compensation. And the numbers aren't mine, but the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

I've read most of the anti union posts on this thread and there are a few recurrent arguments that just don't hold water.

The first is that eliminating collective bargaining is a good idea because public employees are so well paid and the pensions are so good. Well just like in the private sector some are well paid but some are very poorly paid. This is particularly true for those government workers in local municipalities. If the pay and pensions are good for some its because that is what was negotiated.

Second is the idea that collective bargaining should not be thought of as a right. If I'm working for anyone and decide that I am going to ask certain things from my boss that is my right. The boss can say no. That is his right. If I want to go with a coworker for us both to ask for certain things that should be our right. If ten of my coworkers want to me ask for something on their behalf that should be our right. We are not slaves.

I think many workers have lost site of how and why unions came into play. Robber barons abused workers and the formation of unions was a hard fought accomplishment that helped raise the standard of living of the middle class and was very good for America. Currently our middle class has been diminishing. Weakening unions will speed this process.

Those who think that public employees don't need collective bargaining but private employees do are missing the big picture. There are powerful monied groups that hate all unions and want them all dissolved. This is a start. Those of you who are not in unions are still affected. Many nonunion companies raise salaries and benefits to keep pace with union companies. They don't want employees looking to start unions in their companies.

This is not good.

I live in Madison, Wi & people are acting like it's the end of the world. Probably the only voice of reason I've heard all week was on liberal talk radio 92.1. An ex union employee for GM in Janesville called in & said state employees are way overreacting. With the GM crisis most people including himself lost their jobs. Nobody is even going to lose there job with this.

I find it hard to feel pity for state employees when they are home from work on Martin Luther King Day & every other holiday. There's good & bad, but I swear state employees on average are 50# heavier. For Madison that puts them at 285#.

There's no more money in state accounts to pay pensions, medical insurance, dental insurance, raises, etc. for workers be they teachers, state representatives, trash collectors, pot hole fillers, cops, veterianrians, judges, state senators, gardeners, etc. You can 'collectively bargain' for those benefits then be laid off due to lack of funds. The state has no obligation to keep employees that they don't want.

The state will likely next stop paying overtime for any person making over $50K per year to bring salaries into alignment with private industry. Fire/Police overtime pay will be a thing of the past in a few years.

Be glad you don't live in Nazi Israel, Facist Iran, or Facist Bahrain !

In Madison the demonstrator's homes would have been bulldozed down by Israeli soldiers by now. The Israelis would have killed ever demonstrator and sold the kidneys on eBay China by now.

government thugs wrote:

Precious Roy wrote:

Public workers do face reality. They commit themselves to working for government at salaries that are lower than what they could get in the private sector. Most government jobs are dead end jobs with minimal chance for advancement and salary enhancement. .

What planet are you from? Government workers are the highest paid sector in our economy. They have the best benefits. They have the best pensions. They get automatic raises every year. Because of it, our government is bankrupt.

I don't know what your saying....but I haven't gotten a raise in four years and i am a public worker....

In the best year private workers get 10% plus raises....in good years a public employee will get 3% raises.

States should fire state workers and hire part-time contractors where applicatible. Trash collectors, food service, pot hole fillers, office clerks, etc. should be outsourced.

No Money wrote:

States will be curtailing pensions, medical and dental insurance, 3 month vacations for teachers, overtime pay for cops/fire/corrections/etc. State and community college tuition will be going up, with less professors and fewer classes. States have to balance the budget, i.e. they can't borrow from China like the GOP does to feed the Pentagon and Israel.

I don't know what world you are living in but teachers DO NOT get three months vacation...

What teachers get is 3 months of no pay. Vacation usually implys that somone is getting paid...

Teachers might get the summers off but they are making 0 money.

Over 70% of states require teachers to pay for their own pensions. Most people on this board are only looking at the top earners and not the average.

In my stae I'd prefer a 401k because it would be a better deal. Most 401k match your own contributions up to 6%. In my state I have to contribute 7% and the state matches mine at 4%.

I love my job and that is why I stay...I do not stay because of the money.

asdgfh wrote:

According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a federal statistics-gathering agency, federal worker compensation in 2009 averaged $123,049, which was double the private-sector average of $61,051.

but this doesn't compare apples to apples. if you compare the person who is responsible for running medicare to the ceo of any comparably sized private insurance company the comparison won't be within a factor of 10. this is exactly why the insurance company fought to ensure that the health care reform didn't include a public option, they knew that they couldn't compete with the public sector's efficiency (in part due to lower salaries).

people leave for the private sector all of the time because they will make several thousand more each year.

Talk ahout a "lilliys of the field" existence. Government workers do not need a union.

According to the Office of Personnel Management (http://www.fedscope.opm.gov/employment.asp), a federal agency that tracks all employment statistics for the federal government, federal worker compensation in December of 2010 averaged $74,817.

Add in state government employees and that will surely bring the average down closer to the private sector average you quote.

Keep in mind that nationwide there is 25% Effective Unemployment, thus 1/4th of nation has no money to pay state workers outrageous salaries and benefits and holiday packages. 1/4 of the nation doesn't receive any salary nor benefits but are made to pay state sales and gasoline taxes for Cadillac state workers.

For more costs savings, my suggestion would be to eliminate Public Libraries and the State Guard. With the internet, book stores and libraries are obsolete. The State Guards are unnecessary wasteful duplicitous boondoggles and should be elmiminated totally. We have enough military bases and personnel and should be able to use those militants for local state needs.

Not Tori Amos wrote:

What section of the Constitution do you base that "right" on? Where did that "right" come from and who gave it?

is the constitution the only place we can get our "rights" from?

it is absolutely criminal that wisco repos are trying to repo their collective bargaining rights. If this goes through, the Feds should absolutely be able to override any such plan as violating federal labor relations law. We need a lot more unions, not fewer. Our wages and power would be a lot better. The lack of any leverage on the part of labor and writing the laws in favor of corporations (and here government, as in NY with the Wagner Act prohibiting any strikes by public employees) really skews the playing field. The corporations are already de facto collective organizations and even worse they collude through the Chamber of Commerce and many other organizations to fix and reduce wages and conditions.

Well said.

The "system" is outdated , it has nothing to do with the kids getting a better education. It all about the adults. Overhaul the defunct system nationwide , dump the tenure aspect.

Pay for performance , not for time spent on the job.

Pay teachers more to recruit a higher level of talent to the ranks of the profession. Make teachers accountable to higher standard of performance.