fayetteville manlius mileage?

In conversing mode:

I have no dog in your fight; I am just a curious observer who happens to root for the kids.

My original post was to declare that somebody was an impostor and posting using Courtney Chapman and Saggy One.

It was in defense of your group.

My remaining observations were from the heart.

And I repeat:

I was surprised you both posted.

How could you not know this would blow up into what it has?

You have posted on other web sites and the exact same thing has occurred.

You gain nothing by "yelling back". It smelled like condescension.

I applaud your program.

Bill and John,

Thanks for the great replies. It is unfortunate that many cannot accept that successful high school programs -

a) value youth

b) promote healthy lifestyles that include family a social life and strong academics

c) can be both serious and still fun fun

d) can acheive with reasonable level-headed training plans.

Both of you are great examples to us all. Keep up the good work.

-Adam Kedge, Alb Academy

I did not intend to write "fun fun" but if it deals with high school XC it sure does fit.

Of course we were aware that this would blow up! It does every time! This ain't our first rodeo in this arena, not kilgore. When we see FM as a thread topic on the Letsrun message board, we cringe... because we know exactly what will ensue (regardless of our responses).

It is to protect the integtrity of our program and its athletes and coaches that we choose to enter the cess pool.

Do you honestly think we are not aware of the responsive natures of the many slanderous/gutless creeps out there? We've seen this many, many (too many) times.

It will not stop us from speaking the truth, and standing in the line of fire to protect high school kids, and the program for which they run.

It is important that these KIDS see truthful defense of their program if none is being given, should they happen to come across these threads (something we often teach them not to do...yet undoubtedly will happen in this day and age).

It is to clear the air moreso for the runners in our own programs, that we respond. We use these 'dicsussions' as teaching tools on rare occasion when the threads get heated enough...as it is plainly obvious to the well balanced and intelligent reader which 'posters' stand on the right side in all of this.

Leave the gossip to the gossipers? We would if impressionable and innocent kids weren't involved, i.e their names be brought onto a world wide message board where adults attack them and their program.

Unfortunately, we must enter this cess pool on occasion to state fact and dispell false rumor...so that high-school kids don't go home in tears because their names have been slanderized or they have been associated with terrible and fals rumors.

It is also a way of letting people know a bit about our programs...something that we are criticized of not doing enough of!! It is crap like that makes it difficult to want to share anything at all...and people wonder why we are so private ;)

Coach Aris,

I for one am thrilled you have taken some time to answer some questions and again clear up some of the questions surrounding your program, for me any doubts were cleared up after the coach talk you did with Letsrun, great stuff and really insightful and valuable for a young runner and potential future coach. I have a question, it has always interested me since I used to run in Section 2, home of the second best girls program in the country, Saratoga. I would understand completely if you do not want to answer it. How do you feel your program differs from the Kranick's program in Saratoga and what about their program, if anything, do you emulate?

From my view, it would be much more dignified and efficient to ignore the "kids being kids", lose the war metaphors, and simply ask RJ, WJ, and staff to eliminate hurtful posts.

And if you have a desire to share, then share with colleagues in more appropriate locations.

You said it yourself, you knew this would happen.

I have also coached a successful cross country team, albeit not as successful as FM. If you listen to what Coach Aris is saying and take it at face value, he’s telling you what you need to know. There is no mystery, it is not rocket science and as another poster said, “it is more art than science. I’ve coached several different sports and cross country in my opinion is by far the easiest ‘in a way’. Try dealing with a bunch of basketball players who were middle school and AAU stars. Add in a bunch of parents who thought their kid would start on varsity as a freshman and was destined for the NBA; this kid barely makes JV and doesn’t become a varsity starter until his senior year. (There is no parallel to this in cross country.)

From a technical standpoint, in cross country, even if you are not the most knowledge coach, if have a dozen or so kids, set realistic goals, keep things simple and fun you and will be off to a good start. I am not saying this formula will make you the next FM, but if you follow this basic formula below, you will eventually bill a successful team.

You have to get kids to come out; the good teams are almost always large; however you do it, you need volume. This is where having a good age group or middle school feeder program helps and not just because you get young studs, but you get kids who come to high school with running as their chosen sport.

You have to have a program, the kids need to sense they are part of a ‘real’ team and they have to sense there is a plan and they have to believe in the team and buy into the plan. They have to believe that if they follow the plan, they can be successful and the team can be successful.

There is a requite amount of training and types of training that’s required. But, you don’t have to get too fancy in the early years. They need to get some foundation aerobic work, consistent over distance running at a sustained pace that is not too far outside of their comfort zone. Ideally you want this to happen in preseason, but it can be accomplished to a lesser extent in the early season. Once the kids have a basic level of fitness, add in some tempo run, hills and repeats.

As the season progresses, you will have identified your scorers; you can start to put more focus on competition, team and individual goals. The team will start to feel like a team, they will develop an identity and leaders will rise up.

As a coach, to be successful, you have to work your butt off; the extra money you get in your paycheck want mean anything compared the amount of time and effort it takes to build and run a successful team, but you will love it. You really have to be into it; there is no way around that. In turn, the kids will see how hard you work, your enthusiasm and will feed off of that and will want to excel for you. Get some help, preferable someone who is really into XC like yourself. Be a student of the sport, make a few mistakes, but learn and grow. Success feeds success! Once the kids start to feel success, winning becomes the goal and once you start winning you automatically build tradition. To reach something along the FM heights, you have to add in serious off season workouts, harder training, a complete program that involves drills, diet, sleep, big goals, travel, etc.

It is really not that complicated and most successful teams started out that way. People focus too much on the number of miles and the specific training successful teams do and don’t do. I suspect 90% of the good teams to the same things and the really successful ones like FM do a little bit more. Add in the sheer will of the coach and a few determined athletes and there you have it.

10/14/2010 4:45PM

Is that how you talk to the impressionable teenagers in your life.

It looks to me that my conclusions have proved true, but what is immeasurably worse is your sarcastic bad attitude around kids.

how many collegiate runners did arther lydrair coach before snell & co? how about that guy from kenya the irish high school teacher/

an individual person speaks up wrote:

Is that how you talk to the impressionable teenagers in your life.

It looks to me that my conclusions have proved true, but what is immeasurably worse is your sarcastic bad attitude around kids.

Yes, because high school kids should never be exposed to wit or humor, just brooding pessimism and sour grapes.

yes, that was me, during our dual meet with utica proctor.

bill aris

thanks adam, best wishes to you.

regards,

bill

This message board will never be taken seriously until people are required to register a user name and attach an email address to it. This anonymous posting stuff is just nonsense.

That being said, the F-M program is 100% class from the coaches to the athletes, and I have never received anything but stark honesty and respect when interviewing one of the Aris coaches or one of their athletes.

I hope that their success continues, as they are obviously having fun in the process. It is the media, and nosy observers who attempt to ruin that fun. To F-M, I say NEVER let that bother you! But you obviously already know that.

The group of girls this year are attempting to achieve a dream that they fully believe in, as they have seen it happen before. Let's all allow them enjoy that ride and wish them well in the journey.

Respectfully,

Aaron Rich

MileSplit.com Eastern National Editor

"A Stotan is one who hardens, strengthens, toughens and beautifies the body by consistent habits and regular exercise, which are consciously and irrevocably made part of the life plan of the individual ... In addition, Stotans shall train themselves to withstand, stoically, personal criticism, also, skepticism at the necessity or wisdom of such a Way of Life. In this regard, Stotans soon learn that they command knowledge, experience, and ability not available to the prejudiced, the ignorant, or the slothful."

Seconded on how ridiculous this message board can be at times. It seems especially so for commentary on high school runners, for some reason. Jealousy, perhaps? Taking advantage of those who can't stand up for themselves? Regardless, I just don't understand the negativity here. Having worked with some talented high schoolers myself, I am in awe of what Bill Aris has accomplished at F-M. For all of their differences, that is a training program that both Lydiard and Cerutty could both be proud of. I have little to add to the discussion right now, and no particularly insightful questions are coming to mind, so I'd just like to thank Bill and John Aris for their contributions, which will not fall exclusively on deaf ears.

to ny runner:

i tried several times to reply to you last night but for some reason it wouldn't go through when i hit the post button. then i got caught up with the yankee victory. an unlikely way to win, with sabbathia getting shelled, but i'm not complaining. a win is a win.

i really don't know the specifics of the kranick's approach to achieve their phenomenal success over so many years, but they have obviously 'figured it out'. i have ultimate respect for them as coaches, have known them for years, and consider them friends.

along with joe newton of york, 'toga has set the standard for excellence far longer than any xc program in the usa. i would say with confidence that all successful programs in this country have aspired to their standards of excellence, including ours.

while we likely do some things different than saratoga, i'm sure there are similarities, starting with the most important criteria for success in my opinion:

every aspect of the program, at every level of the program, regardless of quality of the team each year in terms of rankings victories etc, must have the pursuit of excellence as its driving force. whether you are a national champion, a local power, or even a middle of the pack team, the pursuit of excellence within each individual within the framework of the team, inspired and motivated by effective coaching, usually works out pretty well in the near term and long haul. you may not win initially, maybe not for a long while, but you will improve. and that is what is is all about after all, isn't it? seeking improvement.

there are many training approaches to success, and it is likely that the teams i mentioned have their own distinctive approaches which define them and are in some ways unique, including ours. but the one absolute, i can assure you, would be that every successful program sets the bar high each year, and works to get close to that bar and/or surmount it.

one of my favorite quotes again.............'how high is up?'

the obvious answer.....infinity, or limitless. no matter what level of team, if you approach things this way you are bound to improve.

i hope this one goes through.

the saggy one wrote:

yes, that was me, during our dual meet with utica proctor.

bill aris

Good to know. That's the first time i've ever seen your team up close. what little i did see of them in between mile repeats. I was as impressed as an exhausted 18 year old could possibly be, as were a few of my teammates.

keep up the good work.

"Life is much too important to be taken seriously."

--Oscar Wilde

Bill and John-

Jealous people will always find fault in successful people rather than looking at their own short comings. Keep raising the bar for the entire nation and especially for NY State.

To all of you- the Aris' are first and formost class people and their athletes are a direct reflection of that

Mike Szczepanik

Hilton XC

After today's impressive team performance at Mt. Sac, it's clear Paragas is doing something right. They ran 89:34 without Mahoney or McCarty and according to dyestatcal, ran as a pack in the race this morning. Team time record of 88:18 set in 2008 could be lowered by November and I wouldn't rule out Saugus in beating FM and Saratoga at NXN this year.

GO SAUGUS!