No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying give the scholarship to the local 18 year old kid who ran as fast in high school as did the import when he/she was 18 years old. What I am saying is the tiebreaker should be that American taxes/money is providing the scholarship so when apples are compared to apples, give the tie to the American kid. Comparing an 18 year old local kid to a 22 year old import is like comparing apples to oranges.
look sandy, if the 22yr import has 3-4yrs of eligibility, well too bad, he/she gets the scholarship. also, you keep railing against these "imports" but yet you provide no answers to why the local hotshots (ben johnson, matt tebo, etc) don't go to unm....perhaps some of them just want to get out of town for whatever reason. perhaps they want to go somewhere challenging, such as stanford (ben's a pretty bright kid).
also, why don't american hs kids flock to unm? could it be that unm just doesn't have the "sex appeal" of a CO, WI, OR, OKst, etc??? those schools have the "storied" distance programs, something joe is finally being given reign to do (the henry's pretty much had to spread it around and field a balanced program) which will (in my opinion) pay off in 1-3 yrs when us kids finally see that unm is a viable first line option for a distance runner.
1-3 years! We can't wait that long! Bring in the 22 year old "freshman" from overseas! Yeah! I'm a sweet coach!
CHAD BROWN IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sandy Rivalson wrote:
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying give the scholarship to the local 18 year old kid who ran as fast in high school as did the import when he/she was 18 years old. What I am saying is the tiebreaker should be that American taxes/money is providing the scholarship so when apples are compared to apples, give the tie to the American kid. Comparing an 18 year old local kid to a 22 year old import is like comparing apples to oranges.
Jeez you make no sense at all, like i said before the american kids that are fast enough will ALWAYS get the scholarship over any foreigner so they don't need to do any "tiebreaker", but the foreigners get scholarship money when all thats left is the americans that are too slow to deserve a scholarship, not saying they aren't faster than the hypothetical foreigner when he was the same age, but the fact is they aren't faster right now. thats how it works there is no charity for developing slow 18 year old americans.
I give up. You will never get the concept that we ought to be developing American kids at American supported (taxpayers) Universities. You also apparently will always consider an 18 year old American as "slower" than a 22 year old import, and you couldn't give a damn if 95% of American collegiate athletes are imported. EOT
who did UNM hire as there new coach...and where is this new xc roster? All I am seeing is last years roster?
With all the discussion, let's start with some facts:
Fact #1 -- the AD at New Mexico has set the top priority of the athletic department teams to win.
Fact #2 -- Coach Franklin has spent a significant amount of time trying to recruit in-state New Mexico athletes, as well as high level US athletes. Home visits, weekly phone calls, offers of paid official visits.
Once the US kids say no, Coach Franklin talks to an international kid who is more than happy to accept the offer that the US kid has turned down.
If the goal is to win, Coach Franklin has done EXACTLY what he is chaged to do by his boss.
Amen
Except you really don't seem to get it. You keep referring to slow American kids. I think Sandy has made it crystal clear that he's not referring to slow American kids. He's talking about promising/talented 18 year olds who get overlooked by a 22 year old foreigner. You're simply incorrect when you state that all deserving Americans will get a scholarship. When there are only 12.5 scholarships for XC and T&F combined, it is impossible for every "deserving" kid to earn some scholarship money. That is a fact.
I have no problem with foreign athletes in the NCAA. It's good for the sport, but I firmly believe the NCAA needs stricter age limits. Emanuel at 25 competing against 20 and 21 year olds (or younger) is ridiculous. It's not about being "slow" or being a "bitch," as you so eloquently put it. I also have a problem with programs relying heavily on the foreign approach. It's recruiting, not developing. Yes, I know, recruiting is a BIG part of being successful at the D1 level, but, why are we subsidizing foreign athletes at the expense of trying to "develop" our own athletes. And nothing about my opinion means catering to slow, undeserving athletes. To the poster who mentioned AD's expecting teams to finish in the top 10 at nationals, there are very few XC programs in D1 that are expected to produce at that level. Most ADs are more than happy if you simply keep your nose clean and be somewhat competitive in your conference. There are too many mediocre coaches keeping their jobs to argue otherwise.
UNM will never be consistently competitive relying on NM kids. The state's population is too low for that to ever happen except once in a great while, but I do hope there is a day in the near future where the Americans on the top 7 outnumber the foreigners and they are competing well at the national level. And it has nothing to do with being a "redneck."
To the "real D1 coach" (whatever that means), when you consider NM's population, I think it's unfair to state that NM is one of the "worst for producing high level talent." Of course, the quality/depth doesn't match up to most, but when you consider the per capita rates, NM does very well for itself. If you look at population, NM has done quite well for itself in terms of FL finalists, NXN teams, and nationally ranked programs.
I am a brit at Uni in the states, and I know a lot of the Brits at UNM. We have this discussion a lot.
An interesting point ‘Sandy’ made was that:
“… give the scholarship to the local 18 year old kid who ran as fast in high school as did the import when he/she was 18 years old.”
Yet I do not see this as being true in any of the cases of the foreign roster in UNM, a quick internet search yeilds:
Ross Millington came to UNM as a true freshman, having ran 3:45.13 as a senior in high school. This would have not only made him the top recruit in NM but one of the most sought after recruits in the nation with his XC pedigree too.
Sam Evans came to UNM as a true freshman, having ran 1:50.05 in the 800m. The 17 year old NM State record is 1:51.73, so Evans would have been the best 800m runner in New Mexico HS history.
Lee Emanuel graduated HS in 2003, as a junior in HS he ran 3:50 on more than one occasion. The NM state record for 1600m (which has now stood for 14 years) is Matt Twiest’s 4:11.2 which is the equivalent of around 3:54.
David Bishop ran 8:37 for 3000m indoors (200m track) as a high school sophomore, and 3:51 for 1500m in his freshman year of college. Rory Fraser ran 8:38 for 2nd place in the English High School nationals as a sophomore and ran 3:56 for 1500 as a junior and 3:49 as a freshman. Both would be top of the NM recruiting class for their year.
Keith Gerrard had ran 14:54 for 5000m before he graduated HS and had ran at both the World and European Cross for Great Britain’s junior teams.
The point is, had these guys come as freshman they would still be better than the current crop of New Mexican distance runners, let alone be the greatest of all time. Matt Tebo ran a state record 9:07 3200m as a Senior, and he didn’t come to UNM, no doubt due to the low reputation of the program. Had these guys been there, he might have thought otherwise. If the coach can’t get the local kids, they look elsewhere in the US, if the coach cant get the US kids, he has to go elsewhere. You don’t just go down the pecking order until you are giving 4:20+ milers full rides… if you want a successful program, you look further for the real deal, like abroad. Franklin has said this a few times in his interviews, look on flotrack.
Sandy, you are obviously closed minded. What do you do for a living? I coach a cross country team in college and have 3 foreigners on my cross team. I try very hard to fill up my roster with american kids...but they dont want to come...location is bad, school is small, town is small, etc etc...prolly the same thing happens at New Mexico. So then i look internationaly...and if you cant get the american kids to come you better find somebody. And the funny thing is the internationals are 100 times better than the american kids i offered money to. Their work ethic, study habits, no partying, etc etc is far better than most americns kids. If good US kids dont want to come and a coach wants to be good what shall he do? Hand out a scholarship to someone not good enough and develop them and hope they can be good by the time they are a senior? Hell no, he will probably be fired by then. So you take an international kid that can come in and make your team better. If you have the money and nobody wants to come...you better find somebody. You have to build the program up and then maybe get some top NM or US kids. You have to remember that if a coach isnt successful then he gets fired...he has a family to support im sure...so he better produce. Well hey he could hand out scholarships to sucky guys, but he may end up like the football team...72-0! are you kidding me...maybe that staff should get some imports...embarassing
when joe franklin wins a national title just let the rest of the world know - until then - who the eff cares. he can stay in albuquerque and stroke his own meat. point being, he looks like a peanut from the awards stand.
I don't think many people can disagree with anything you've said. But there's NO WAY he can feel the same sense of achievement as a coach (or even close) that is as good as UNM with U.S. high school talent. There's no effing way.
The voice of Reason v2.0 wrote:
With all the discussion, let's start with some facts:
Fact #1 -- the AD at New Mexico has set the top priority of the athletic department teams to win.
Fact #2 -- Coach Franklin has spent a significant amount of time trying to recruit in-state New Mexico athletes, as well as high level US athletes. Home visits, weekly phone calls, offers of paid official visits.
Once the US kids say no, Coach Franklin talks to an international kid who is more than happy to accept the offer that the US kid has turned down.
If the goal is to win, Coach Franklin has done EXACTLY what he is chaged to do by his boss.
How do you know what Coach Franklin feels? I personally don't know, but neither do you.
ABQ scene: I use that moniker since I really am a DI coach. You are trying to make chicken salad out of chicken ^%$#.
The bottom line is that New Mexico as a state produces very few Division I athletes in any sport. It is irrelevant that you try to say that for their population they do okay. That is not the point. Look at the state track meet results. There are less than 8 athletes in the entire state that are DI talent. New Mexico as a talent pool is very weak.
You people against foreigners getting scholarships NEVER get the point I'm trying make!!!
Let me say it this way:
Lets say there are NO FOREIGNERS INVOLVED!! The really fast american kids like solinsky, rupp, fernandez etc. will get scholarships.
Now pretty much all of the others that are fast and "developing" but probably won't make an impact right away will only get offered books, or nothing more than a spot on the team (this is at the good running programs).
KEEP IN MIND NO FOREIGNERS ARE INVOLVED HERE
.. So either way the "18 year old deserving kids" that will get scholarships are the ones like solinsky that will make an impact on the team right away.
the others may work just as hard and are just as deserving will most likely NOT get athletic scholarships.
Do you see how this works??
Foreigners are recruited and given money because they will make an impact right away like solinsky, rupp, etc..
Now all of the other "deserving" american kids that are state champs, and still fast but just not as fast as the solinskys, rupps, etc.. WILL NOT get athletic scholarships.
SO WHETHER FOREIGNERS ARE INVOLVED OR NOT THESE KIDS WILL NOT BE HANDED OUT SCHOLARSHIPS ANYWAY!!!
You people against foreigners getting scholarships NEVER get the point I'm trying make!!!
Let me say it this way:
Lets say there are NO FOREIGNERS INVOLVED!! The really fast american kids like solinsky, rupp, fernandez etc. will get scholarships.
Now pretty much all of the others that are fast and "developing" but probably won't make an impact right away will only get offered books, or nothing more than a spot on the team (this is at the good running programs).
KEEP IN MIND NO FOREIGNERS ARE INVOLVED HERE
.. So either way the "18 year old deserving kids" that will get scholarships are the ones like solinsky that will make an impact on the team right away.
the others may work just as hard and are just as deserving will most likely NOT get athletic scholarships.
Do you see how this works??
Foreigners are recruited and given money because they will make an impact right away like solinsky, rupp, etc..
Now all of the other "deserving" american kids that are state champs, and still fast but just not as fast as the solinskys, rupps, etc.. WILL NOT get athletic scholarships.
SO WHETHER FOREIGNERS ARE INVOLVED OR NOT THESE KIDS WILL NOT BE HANDED OUT SCHOLARSHIPS ANYWAY!!!
I don't see whats so hard to grasp about this point, the runners that are fast but not as fast will not be overlooked because of foreigners because they would not be offered scholarships anyway. Foreigners are not stealing anything from anyone.
And just to give you a background about myself, I was fast out of high school and only got books and fees, I ran fast my freshman year and got more scholarship money, and I remember the only people that complained about foreigners taking american scholarships were the ones that wouldn't have a scholarship whether foreigners were involved or not anyway.
Basically foreigners end up being a scapegoat
It is beside the point, but New Mexico records only include performances at the State meet, so none of the "state records" you cite are really the fastest times run by NM high schoolers.
Those NM high school state records were done at altitude.