lagat 3:32.56 in Morocco

Come out with it...say what you "really" mean. You're putting some pretty strong stuff out there and casting aspersions on people I doubt you personally know. Not their backgrounds, their training, their values or morals. You want to paint everyone with the same brush! Can't be done, Van Gogh.

TRUUUUU wrote:

Right, I'm sure tesing was the same std at rbk where he was paid to be as it was us champs. He knows what he's doing though, so we'll see if he's flat/injured/mis-times his peak for WCs as he did for the olympics (how a seasoned pro/world champ does that I'm sure I don't know). Whateva

Ever heard of out-of-competition testing. No, of course not. You wouldn´t want facts to get in the way of your retarded shit.

TRUUUUU wrote:

-how bout the FACT that he ran like a slow ass b*tch a few wks ago in testing-america and runs that fast where?! Oh yeah, drug-ville

I like Lagat, and I personally think he is clean. I'm not going to argue with you on that, because you will disagree no matter what I say, you just don't like him.

However, the statement I quoted shows a huge misunderstanding of how PEDs work. PEDs are not like uppers, its not something you take and they give you an instant boost. In order to be effective, you take PEDs while you are training your hardest, so that you can train harder and more frequently, recover more quickly, and heal injuries faster. This is the reason that out-of-season testing is so important. It takes weeks and months of cycling of these drugs to really see improvement.

If Lagat "ran like a slow ass b*tch" in America, it wasn't because he was off the junk, it was because he was using it as a workout and the 800m is not his best distance. It would be impossible for Lagat to go from being a "slow ass b*tch" to running 3:32 in 2 weeks, drugs or no drugs. That is simply not how they work.

Don't feed the trolls. Especially when there are two equally long, innacurrate, inflammatory, and poorly typed posts right after one another with different names. I'd be surprised if this guy is above age 17, so only being a 15:00 guy isn't actually all that terrible.

TRUUUUU wrote:

Willis yes, silva possibly, kiprop unknown.

Ah, simple!

The white English speaker is obviously clean.

The white non-English speaker is possibly clean.

The non-white non-English speaker is not clean.

If Lagat were dirty he is certainly not now. It would be insanity if he tried anything today. So in short his 3:32 this week was from hard work.

The question now should be what does Lagat do that other top US runners like Webb and Krummenacker don't do.

I sort of doubt Willis is clean. He came out of several years of mediocrity to nab that silver. The only person I can say with 100% confidence is clean is Jenny Barringer (which is impressive in its own right). She may never get an Olympic or WC medal because of her choice to not use drugs, but she will continue to break into all-time lists and tear up the large majority of her competition.

I can guarantee anyone training with Mark Wetmore is either clean or hiding their drug use from him. I find it interesting that Goucher and other athletes chose to leave him and subsequently had "breakthroughs" as if his training was holding them back. While his training is vigorous and you have to be careful to not push yourself to injury, his plans are second to none, and it's very doubtful AlSal or Schumacher is doing something so much better as to cause those impressive jumps in performance.

And Warhurst isn't?

What is it with people that make no effort to research anything before coming to a conclusion, however outlandish?

Willis ran 3:43 as a junior in high school in New Zealand back in 2001, rarely going over 50km a week in training. He got to Michigan in 2002, and a year and half after Warhurst had him doing some serious training, he ran 3:36 in 2003 and then 3:32 in 2005 followed by another 3:32 in 2006. He hasn't run any faster since, in large part to missing much of the winter and spring in 2007 due to injury.

He hardly "came out of no where." Talk to guys who struggled to make finals and then snagged a medal when everything went right and often they'll tell you that difference between that year and the others was that they stayed injury free for an extended period of time.

Wetmore doesn't exactly have a lot of guys WANTING to be around him after college. He has a great system of making very good runners, but not very many excellent runners. Isn't Jay Johnson involved with Jenny B anyways?

Coaching isn't just physical workouts, it's mental preparation. Alberto and Jerry seem like very enjoyable guys to be around and the type of guys that can motivate you. Wetmore seems to lack that a bit and is more focussed on volume and control for results. Successful for college teams when you have a lot of depth to work with, not so much when making sure person A, B & C are ready to go at given times.

It is possible that some people are better at coaching college teams and others are better at coaching elite individuals you know. And then there are just freaks. Bernard was always great in college, but his program was just ok.

Nothing white vs anything else ya pLick, instead I would contend that webb at one point has been epo'n it, lagat if not now then def before, and I believe krum def was for a time (his name came up)...

on the runs wrote:

And Warhurst isn\'t?

What is it with people that make no effort to research anything before coming to a conclusion, however outlandish?

Willis ran 3:43 as a junior in high school in New Zealand back in 2001, rarely going over 50km a week in training. He got to Michigan in 2002, and a year and half after Warhurst had him doing some serious training, he ran 3:36 in 2003 and then 3:32 in 2005 followed by another 3:32 in 2006. He hasn\'t run any faster since, in large part to missing much of the winter and spring in 2007 due to injury.

He hardly \"came out of no where.\" Talk to guys who struggled to make finals and then snagged a medal when everything went right and often they\'ll tell you that difference between that year and the others was that they stayed injury free for an extended period of time.

I actually know Willis\' history well. I know he ran 3:43 in HS. I also know that 3:43 is a long way from an Olympic silver medal no matter how young you are. Look--people question Webb\'s legitimacy, and he ran 7-ish seconds faster than Willis did for a converted 1500m time in HS.

That's because most people are stupid.

Jay Johnson and Jenny might be in contact, but Mark and Heather are her primary coaches. If you mean involved in another way? No, they aren't. I would consider Goucher and Jenny Barringer were both, under Wetmore's tutelege, excellent runners. Add to that list Alan Culpepper, Add to that list Jorge Torres. Add to that list Dathan Ritzenhein.

TRUUUUU wrote:

Nothing white vs anything else ya pLick, instead I would contend that webb at one point has been epo'n it, lagat if not now then def before, and I believe krum def was for a time (his name came up)...

Who are you talking to?

Lagat will at least prevent a US 1500 meter embarrassment at the WCs. When he retires I don't want to even think about the state of US 1500 meter running.

wowsa wrote:

TRUUUUU wrote:

Nothing white vs anything else ya pLick, instead I would contend that webb at one point has been epo'n it, lagat if not now then def before, and I believe krum def was for a time (his name came up)...

Who are you talking to?

Never mind. Perhaps he will learn to write comprehensible posts before he graduates from high school.

This thread has become another example of how/why so many US distance runners who do use PED's (just like Lagat, who btw tested positive before) will continue to get a pass from USATF and other governing bodies. We gullibly have our head in the sand, only to look up when a foreign athlete is accused. Lagat has tested positive. Slaney tested positive. Jacobs tested positive. And we are to believe that Bob Kennedy (who trained with, receive the same treatment from, and was medically treated by the same Italian doctors notoriously drugging their runners in the 90's) did not use PED's because he never got caught?? There was nothing about BK's ability that pointed to an eventual sub-13. After some "treatment" and "massages" that 12:58 becomes much more attainable.

It is very difficult to actually prove that Salazar's crew currently have a hand in the drug basket. But I do believe his personal running history, along with his athletes' recent DRAMATIC jumps in performance, and specifically Rupp's complete annihilation of the NCAA this year should open folks eyes to at least consider the possibility that MANY of our best distance runners are using PED's daily and are all fraudulent. And for all of you blind followers who will find some nugget of my post to justify your denial, please understand that those who develop, use, and abuse will always be ahead of those who test, look for, and govern the drug industry. Always.

It's time to set the record straight on PEDs.

They're all guilty. Everyone uses them, and everyone knows it. We only catch the ones that are too careless and too stupid to avoid detection.

Here's what I think we should do. Legalize all PEDs. Banning them is just dumb. It's like banning recreational drugs; it will never work. Let everyone come out of the shadows and be open about what they are using. This will level the playing field.

We live in the twenty-first century and we clearly cannot survive without technology. Why not use PEDs?

One of the stupidest things I've read on here, in a long, long time.

This is from someone who has heard a thing or two, knows someone who knows someone, someone disgruntled that they never achieved the greatness they desired and casts blame away from themselves and on to "them."

A guy who spent years studying at various accredited universities to earn a doctorate in physiology and organic chemistry reached a conclusion that there was never any synthetic EPO in Bernard Lagat's urine sample. This is supported by the improper storage conditions acknowledged by the testers, as well as the attitudes and statements consistently espoused by James Li and James Templeton. Anyone who has spent more than a few minutes with either, let a long is on a first name basis with them can tell you that both find doping detestable and have themselves been cheated out of earnings in the past (by assholes like Rachid Ramzi).

Now, unless you have a similar education and analyzed the urine and the statements from the testers, how are you in a position to offer a contrary opinion with any credibility? Because of your conspiracy theories that lack any substance or foundation?

Please, detail everything you know about which Italian doctors treated Kennedy, when they did it, what they were treating and their methods. I will eagerly await your detailed summary and analysis, as well as your argument that Kennedy, who ran 3:38 at 20 and 7:35 at 24, was in no way talented enough to crack 13-minutes.