Contemporaries of Pre How Do You Rank Him as a Runner?

pre841 wrote:

malmo wrote:

The Nike Koolaid bin hadn't yet been built when Pre was running. Pre was wearing Adidas.

As far as I know, the first athlete to wear Nike in International competition was a high school kid from Lebanon Illinois.

I was certain that I'd seen several photos of Prefontaine in various Nikes.

http://www.justrunners.com/Steve%20Prefontaine%20Cross%20Country%20Running%20Poster.jpghttp://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/151/PREFONTAINE~Steve-Prefontaine-The-Gift-Posters.jpghttp://blog.oregonlive.com/terryrichard/2007/07/medium_Prefontaine3.jpghttp://pro.corbis.com/images/42-15576942.jpg?size=67&uid=%7B7EF7E33F-2DB2-4786-8628-AEE303675B71%7Dhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EpRk3yucsYc/SYODZJKTtCI/AAAAAAAAAB0/SnZfTe0ktqk/s400/prerun22222.jpg

Am I seeing things, or can you see the finish line girls' breast in the corbis picture?

Oh, and as far as Pre goes, the very existence of this thread (and my post) is a microcosm of our age.

wejo wrote:

Steve Prefontaine died in the middle of what would have been arguably the greatest career in American sports history.

We will probably never see an athlete dominate a sport like Pre did, and for that, I feel, he deserves better recognition.

These two quotes complete remove any credibility that the article may have had. There have been at least five athletes in distance running alone that have dominated the sport more than Pre did and to compare him even remotely to athletes like Jordan, Phelps, Ruth, Sanders, hell, even Bekele or Bolt is just asinine. I hope that this kid isn't looking forward to a career in competent sports writing.

stupid ankle wrote:

I'm certainly not a contemporary of Pre, but I think in terms of impact of his death, he has affected running more than almost any other athlete.

10 years from now, no one is going to remember Sean Taylor as a player, only that he was murdered. Same with Pat Tillon. Not going to be remembered for his impact as a player, but as a patriot who gave his life for his country.

I can definitely see Pre as top 5. In terms of his impact on the sport, for what ever reason, he is glorified today. Every running shop has the Pre t-shirts and I'm always talking to HS kids who want to be Pre.

The list was labelled shocking and tragic, not "biggest impact on the sport". In light of that it is easy to see how things like a double-murder/suicide induced by drugs widely taken within a "sport" can be both more shocking, and more tragic than a drunk driving accident. The deaths of Taylor and Stringer were shocking in that they exposed the vulnerability of professional athletes and were magnified by media coverage. And you know what, even if Tillman wasn't to football what Pre was to running, he died in the service of his country and laid down millions to do it. I'd rank him higher than Pre just out of nobility and honor.

I was born a year or so after Steve. Did not run competitively or otherwise in high school so might be more representative of the typical male boomer of that day.

I recall reading articles about him in the Spring/Summer of 1971 in the sports page. The only other US runners I could name were Billy Mills and Jim Ryun.

He was incredibly "bib" at that time.

Ron Clarke stated that he felt that Pre would most likely have won the 5000 in Montreal had he lived. Of course nobody will ever know.

Original poster wrote:We will probably never see an athlete dominate a sport like Pre did, and for that, I feel, he deserves better recognition.

The Machine wrote:There have been at least five athletes in distance running alone that have dominated the sport more than Pre did and to compare him even remotely to athletes like Jordan, Phelps, Ruth, Sanders, hell, even Bekele or Bolt is just asinine. I hope that this kid isn't looking forward to a career in competent sports writing.

At least five runners? Try fifty. There are lots of people who have finished 4th at the Olympics and held national records. It's no big deal. Jon Brown has dominated distance running better than Steve Prefontaine.

I think this is about right. I was almost exactly contemporary with Pre--a little younger, but ahead of him in school--and for a number of years he was "the guy" for American distancemen. What sport did he dominate? *American* distance running, at a time when that meant (to us) something roughly similar to what "American baseball" means now. (PLEASE don't tell me about baseball. I said "roughly similar" to try to illustrate his impact *on his American contemporaries in distance runng*.)

Something frequently overlooked was that Pre was also the American guy winning NCAA races against foreigners, some of whom were outstanding. This carried a lot of weight back then.

Maybe my abiding memory was of Pre's first NCAA cross win, and of his being dragged down the chute so the finish line wouldn't clog up. This was not a showboat thing--he gave all he had and had nothing left. Though I suppose I'd rank his near-tie Pac-10 race (as a frosh) against Lindgren right up there, because there was *never* a tougher collegiate competitor than Gerry. To race even-up against GL was mind-boggling.

This is been an interesting thread. I was born the year after Pre. I saw him run three times. No four. 1971 AAU 3-mile that he won in 12:58.6 (US record by Lindgren 12:53.0 at the time); 1972 pre-Trials race in Gresham, Oregon, 7:45.8 3,000 which I believe was the American record at the time; and the 1972 Trials 5,000 (13:22.8 American record). 1973 NCAA Cross at Spokane (1st after trailing Nick Rose by a good distance at halfway. Reminded me of Rupp/Chelanga. Two of them at Hayward Field, so the noise was way up there. You had to be there to appreciate the adulation he had at Hayward.

How do I rank him? Definitely the class of the Americans at the time. I think he came close to fulfilling his potential, but could have been better after 1975 if he could've stayed motivated. I think at 10,000 there was more there as he never ran it in a competitive situation.

He was a little unlucky on a European tour in 1974. He ran a mile time-trial in Eugene in September during field burning and tore some rib cartilage or something from coughing. He then went over and raced Brendan Foster and Viren but had to drop out of a race. He supposedly was in his "best shape ever" at the time.

As far as the 76 Olympics, hard to say. I think Viren still would have won the 5,000. If Pre had chose to run the 10,000, probably a medal, as Foster was sub-par from diarrhea, and nobody else was that great besides Viren and Carlos Lopes.

One thing about Pre was that he was willing to run against anybody. He didn't have to be sure of winning. A mile in 73 against Dave Wottle is a good example. It was to help raise money to rebuild the East grandstand at Hayward. Wottle 3:53.3, Pre 3:54.6 which was his PR

I don't count as a contemporary, and to the likes of malmo it's an insult that some of lesser beings share the same earth. Then again, I wore the Swoosh in 1974.

I was in high school when Pre died. There was just a little article in the local paper, not much more than a blip on the radar. It was a shocker for sure--for a track fan, but not the general public. And how can you "rate" the sigificance of death? Weird premise for the article to begin with. Like, who cares?

Still, I do remember reading about him 5 years before that, in the Des Moines Register for their coverage of NCAAs. He had that rock star appeal.

He had a great Olympic run, but the Shorter, Wottle, and yes Viren, stories were bigger.

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

Adi Dassler wrote:

Not speaking for Malmo but I think his point was that Pre was an adidas runner (as were most then) until 1973. Dead by 1975. Craig Virgin being the first athlete to wear Nike in international competition is plausible, since he wore them in high school and could have worn them in USA Junior dual meets.

Image:

http://www.stripes.com/photoday/041606.jpg

That pic was what, from the '72 Olympics? I assume he may have been wearing some of Bowerman's spikes at that time, but when did Nike become Nike? Around that time, right? Maybe he wanted to stick to the familiar Adidas spikes for the Olympics.

It just so happens I was at the Nike Store in Eugene yesterday... The Nike Swoosh was trade marked June 22, 1974.

Blue Ribbon Sports: April 26, 1966 (surprised me it was that old). BRS imported Tiger (now Asics).

Pre's spike on display is dated 1970.

Malmo may be right that it was Virgin first Internationally, but Pre was wearing prior to that at least domestically.

I was wearing the Nike America spike starting with the indoor season of 1974. (a red nylon with blue bottom); so they were certainly around. At the Trials in '72, Nike was giving away Nike T shirts and stuff too. So, I am sure that Pre started wearing Nike spikes in races as early as '73 but no later than '74. Prior to that, Pre was an Adidas, Toykyo spike wearer, as were most of us in the early 70s. My first ones had the x on the heel and the pull up tab before they went to the cushioned top of the heel uppper.

Ian Stewart was born 15 January 1949. Pre was born 25 January 1951. London '69 means an 18 year old against a 20 year old. Munich '72 means a 23 year old against a 21 year old. Two years at those stages of development mean a lot.

Bob Wildes wrote:

Ron Clarke stated that he felt that Pre would most likely have won the 5000 in Montreal had he lived. Of course nobody will ever know.

Prefontaine improved his personal best in the 5,000 by two seconds between 1971 and 1974 (from 13:23 to 13:21). So one could argue that he was a "mature" runner by 1974.

He would have needed a major breakthrough to win the 5000 in Montreal. Bronze medalist Klaus-Peter Hildebrand had a personal best of 13:13 and was a kicker, like Quax and Dixon. With all due respects to Ron Clarke, Prefontaine would have done well to finish fourth in that race. Prefontaine might have changed the nature of the race (probably to Viren's further advantage), but it's hard to see him finishing higher than fourth against that field under any scenario. People forget how good Hildebrand, Quax, and Dixon actually were. Pre's best race (or possibly second best after his 10k record) was a 2 mile in 1974 in Stockholm, where he finished third in 8:18 against Dixon (8:14) and Puttemans (8:16). Pre lowered his PR at that distance by one second, which he had set in 1972.

Some have pointed out that Pre might have won a bronze medal in the 10,000 instead of Brendan Foster, which is even more plausible given that Foster was ill at the time.

In any case, he was the best distance runner in America at the 2k to 5k. He and Shorter were the two best at 10k. Had he lived, Pre might have had to share the stage with upstarts like Duncan McDonald and Dick Buerkle--and Marty Liquori.

And by the way, I wore my first pair of Nike training shoes in 1972. The uppers were flimsy nylon, and I quickly developed plantar fasciitis. (They were blue uppers.)

Some have said that Pre favored Adidas, but I think by 1972 his favorite shoes were Tiger Asics, at least for training on the road.

No, I don\'t think Pre could have won the 5k in Montreal the way it unfolded. It was a totally kickers race. Maybe he would have affected that pace but who knows. I would disagree that he wasn\'t going to improve much more. The last race he ran, the night he died was basically his 1st serious outdoor race of the season and he won going away and was within a couple of seconds of his pr. I think it\'s fair to assume that he would have been below 1320 that summer. How far? who knows. The 10k would have been his best race over the next 4-5 years of his life, had he lived. Can you imagine him on the road circut in the late 70s, early 80s the way he could hammer?

Jordan notes that someone (Shorter?) used to tease Pre that he'd take a beating again in the 5,000 in Montreal before he moved up to win the 10,000 in Moscow. Of course, there are far too may hypotheticals to imagine how that race might have played out...

wejo wrote:

Pre held, at one time or another, nineteen national high school records, eight collegiate records, and fourteen American Records.

Nineteen national high school records? Anyone care to elaborate on what these were. I know he held the outdoor 2 mile record. He never had the mile or 5000 record, since Ryun and Lindgren held those for years. I doubt he ever ran indoors, but if he did he didn't top Lindgren's 8:40.0 2 mile record. In fact no one has yet. I'm not sure what the indoor mile record was back then. So I'm about 18 short. Anyone?

It seems that this is how Pre information progresses over the years. Starts with exaggeration, then wild exaggeration, and finally just making shit up.

mcgato,

Just want to add all my research/stats came from the U of O bio, the USATF Hall of Fame bio (which links to Nat'l Distance Running Hall of Fame web site), stevepre.com, and I have read, but didn't quote directly from: Pre by Tom Jordan, Bowerman and the Men of Oregon by Kenny Moore, and Out of Nowhere by Geoff Hollister. Also, I looked at prefontainerun.com.

heres a link to the U of O site

http://www.goducks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=500&ATCLID=30594&SPID=243&SPSID=4584

Nat Distance Running HOF

http://www.distancerunning.com/inductees/2000/pre.html

OK, the Duck website lists one record from his high school years and the other site has no mention of other high school records. I'm still 18 short.

And I think this is the rift between the "Pre was god" and the "Pre was a damn fine runner" groups. The former seem to come up with "facts" that just aren't true. The latter just give the appropriate credit.

Of the facts given in your original post:

--I doubt Pre was the first to demand change in the AAU, though he was very out front about it. I do not know a lot about that time, so I'll let others give a yea or nay on that.

--As malmo pointed out, he was not the first to wear Nike spikes with the swoosh on them.

--I highly doubt he set 19 national high school records.

--I'll not get into the opinions expressed, as others have done so. Many are tough to justify, though.

From my memory banks, the most shocking or tragic track athlete to die was Ivo van Damme who died a few months after winning two silver medals in the 1976 Olympics at the age of 22 or so. I may have missed someone else though.

Pre was a great runner, but really only well known in the track world. His legacy as a man who died before his time, has enhanced his persona. I feel that his 'bad boy' reputation has captured the imagination of those who where born after his death.

The other two great American distance runners of the time are Ryun and Lindgren (Ryun was the only person to beat Lindgren in an NCAA meet). No one could capture the attention of the public like Ryun. Always polite in public, but focused on the track.

Ryun (unlike many football and baseball teams) could and did fill the LA Coliseum during the heyday of the Compton Relays. Here is an interesting statistic...

Number of times on the cover of Sports Illustrated:

Ryun = 7

Pre = 2

Lindgren = 0

By the age of 24 (Pre died at 24) Ryun held 5 individual world records (also was part of 3 relay WRs); Pre none.

Ryun major athletic awards

Track & Field News Athlete of the Year award for both 1966 & 1967, the first athlete to win this prestigious award two years in a row.

The 1966 Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year award.

The 1966 James E. Sullivan Award, presented to the best amateur athlete in the U.S.

The 1966 ABC Wide World of Sports Athlete of the Year award

ESPN best high scool athelete in hisory

Pre and Lindgren are asteriks in track history. Ryun ruled the world for several years.

This is what I rember.