Tempo runs are overated?

All world class MD runners train power and speed. I wonder who´s wrong: them or you?

You don't know all world class milers. And the majority of them don't train for power. And speed in a relative term. Most are fast but the way some of you discuss it you make it sound like there is a distance running Combine where you run a 40 yard dash and test your vertical leap. The truth is you don't need to be super athletic or explosive to be a world class miler. Like I said in another thread read Train Hard Run Easy. Tanser describes many of there top mid distance guys as weak even for an average person (many struggled doing 10 simple pressups). And there wasn't much mention of gym work or plyometrics at all throughout the course of the book. Just b/c Elg does something it does not make it law.

identify your weaknesses and improve them, maintain your strong points, find what works for you and go with it.

if you are of Moroccan, Ethiopian or Kenyan decent - train like them - otherwise stick to the fundamentals and basics, tweaking them slightly for your individual case.

as an example, i trained with a guy whose 3k, 5k and 10k paces were all roughly the same, in fact he once ran a p.r. for 5k in the last half of a track 10k. in such a case, you could easily argue that if given the choice of whether to run faster paced speed work or to run tempo - he should have been incorporating more speed.

there are other types who have strong 1500m speed, but run considerably slower than they "should" at 3k - 10k ... more tempo work.

a good friend of mine, and an excellent coach says "this ain't rocket science"

Relaxtakeiteasy wrote:

You don't know all world class milers. And the majority of them don't train for power. And speed in a relative term.

Lets take a look at the all-time mile list. Who trained for power? (hills/pylos/short sprints/weights)

El G-yes (hurdle drills, pylos, 10X300m hills)

Ngeny-?

Morceli-?

Cram-a bit (10X150 sometimes)

Webb-YES-(perhaps too much?)

Aouita-YES (4X10X100m hills every week during)

Coe-YES (30X100m grass hills)

Scott-yes (also did short hills)

lagat-?

Ovett-yes

Walker-a bit

Of course speed is relative...you are slow and they are fast.

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

Relaxtakeiteasy wrote:

You don't know all world class milers. And the majority of them don't train for power. And speed in a relative term.

Lets take a look at the all-time mile list. Who trained for power? (hills/pylos/short sprints/weights)

El G-yes (hurdle drills, pylos, 10X300m hills)

Ngeny-?

Morceli-?

Cram-a bit (10X150 sometimes)

Webb-YES-(perhaps too much?)

Aouita-YES (4X10X100m hills every week during)

Coe-YES (30X100m grass hills)

Scott-yes (also did short hills)

lagat-?

Ovett-yes

Walker-a bit

Of course speed is relative...you are slow and they are fast.

This does not prove anything. Running something 30 or 40 times,or doing 10x 150 does not necessarily mean speed and power.-at best its leg turnover maintenance, learning to hold good form while tired.-if this is what the original poster meant on this topic I agree with him. But he made it sound like we need to develop raw speed through many hours of gym work. And another thing is you have no idea what you are talking about on training to be explosive. With the exception of Elg and the hurdle drills none of your examples really have anything to do with being explosive. I've read about him doing those before and I'm amazed he devoted that much energy to plyos on top of the intense training he did. But hes really a rare exception along with maybe Webb who seems to care to much about upper body strength. Sometimes he just looks out of place.

Relaxtakeiteasy wrote:

I was able to run 23 and 49 for 400 at 18 and my 800 and 1500 PB's were 154 and 417 ( i actually did do lots of plyos and resistance training back then. Then I got to college and did none of that BS. I started training like a runner should 70-80miles a week.(10 runs a week) I ended up running 3:45 for 1500. I doubt I could even break 50 in the 400 by that point but it made no difference. When everyone is tired at 1200 it doesn't matter how much "power" you have. This isn't the 100meters we are discussing on letsrun, we are middle and long distance runners. It comes down to the person with the most strength. Quick the BS shortcuts to running fast, sack up and run more high quality miles.

But see, you already had pretty good speed.

I'm mostly addressing people that come from the other end of the spectrum: good endurance, lacking speed.

And besides, how do you know you couldn't havee run faster than 23 and 49?

What if you sold yourself short?

If you had 23 & 49 at 18 and then stopped really focusing on that aspect of your running, I don't think there's any doubt that indeed sold yourself short.

Like I said, even the elite middle-distance guys with AMAZING speed still work on it.

My example was Ovett: he was running in the 22's and 47's as a teenager, yet if you look at his training, he never stopped working on that aspect of his running.

Power is defined as

work/time

and if you don't think hill sprints develop power or are explosive...well then I don't know how to explain it in simpler terms. They are.

Short speed work or gym work should not take away from your running much...as canova says, ADD not REPLACE. I do agree with you about Webb's upper body muscle...it is not needed. Glute/hamstring/quad power IS though.

Relaxtakeiteasy wrote:

The truth is you don't need to be super athletic or explosive to be a world class miler.

????

Like I said in another thread read Train Hard Run Easy. Tanser describes many of there top mid distance guys as weak even for an average person (many struggled doing 10 simple pressups)

Doesn't it just make you want to be like them?

Besides, Webb can do a few...

You know, it doesn't hurt to try to become a better all-around athlete (as long as you're not compromising your running goals).... what are you afraid of?

Jerkstore wrote:

notempos wrote:

Overrated and unnecessary. I could never break 3 hours until I ditched the tempos and switched to 2 speed sessions weekly, one long (3-5 miles of 800s and 1600s) and one short (1-2 miles of 200s, 400s). Coach said that tempos are less efficient in producing results and can wear you down.

Uh, let us know when you break 2:40. 3:00 hours is Oprah-esque.

Well it may be Oprah-esque for a twerp like you. But I'm 53 years old. Get back to us when you are 53 and let us know how fast you can run a marathon then.

Your advice is pretty irrelevant for non-masters runners. We don't have to worry nearly as much about getting worn down.

My point would be to train like the maffetone method for endurance this is tempo - endurance work.

On the other hand work something out like a 400 meter runner.

Keep the middle intensities out completely maybe touch them some weeks before a race, but other then that keep the hard work fast.

Maffetone in my eyes is great training for every athlete but especially middle distance runners for endurance. Try doing 4 - 5 milers every day at maximal heart rate minus 40 to 60 beats that is a good pace that doesn't hurt at all. It is slightly slower then marathon pace. Think of marathon pace = 99% aerobic then the upper zone of maffetone = 100 % aerobic. For the faster milers that means only seconds per mile slower then marathon pace on the upper threshold of maffetone running. For me this is slightly over aerobic threshold but still not a hard pace.

If you would do 10 such workouts a week where you build to the upper zone if fresh or stay on the low site when not fresh and do speedwork or speed endurance i think you have a log similar to a professional middle distance runner.

A marathoner could use this upper pace for 90 minutes a couple of times a week and do some anaerobic threshold pace reps and also build a great training around it.

Is this a traditional tempo workout like anaerobic threshold. No! But it is fast relaxed running that feels more like jogging then working hard.

yet, how much faster is Elg? how about coe? lagat, webb, baala, ramzi, cacho, cassada, silva, aouita, bashir, morceli, komen, rotich, said-sief? all of which anyone can tell you worked on their power in some way or another, whether in the form of plyos, weights, hill, sprints, or a combination of them. where do the tanser's "top mid distance guys" compare to them? i losly quote peter coe when he responded to someone who told him "i race fine without sprint drills, weights and plyos". he said you would have done better if you had. now this is regarding just milers, but you do know that the entire ethiopian team is pushed to do extensive weight and plyo work year round? not to mention that in several schools of kenyan though include the same.

Everything must be taken in context. You can not talk about the usefulness of a single kind of workout, on its own. You must include the athlete, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her goals, as well as the balance with the rest of his/her training.I'm sure some people overrate tempo runs.I'm sure some people overrate long runs.I'm sure some people overrate recovery runs.I'm sure some people overrate repeats.I'm sure some people overrate weight training.I'm sure every kind of workout imaginable is overrated somewhere by someone.At the same time, I'm sure all of these workouts are also underrated somewhere by someone.Tempo runs are for building stamina -- the ability to run faster for longer. Training is about strengthening your weaknesses, and building your strengths. If you have well developed stamina, but lack speed, you will not respond well to more tempo runs, but will respond well to speed training.Due to varying muscle fiber compositions, or other genetic or historical factors, some athletes will respond well to tempo runs almost daily, while others respond well to more frequent speed sessions. (See the "2 kinds of runners" thread for a better description of what I mean).Training is all about finding the right balance -- this is an individual journey. Seems like the transition from stamina development to maintenance, coupled with a focus on speed development was a step in the right direction for you.

yuocxnn wrote:

Does anyone here think that the importance of tempo runs are over emphasized? I'm not saying I do but I have better results through intervals twice a week and only a short progression style run that is akin to tempo training.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of posters on here are not world class and do not have the time to train like a world class athlete. Most of us work full time or go to school full time. When I was a grad student I volunteered as a coach at my college and the head coach explained to me the reason he doesn't get too caught up in little stuff (weights, plyos) Athletes who are only 18-20 don't come into college completely discilpined. If I tell them to run 60 miles a week and do a circuit in the weight room they will run 50 miles a week and add more weight room work thinking one is as important as the other. Let the athlete get aerobically fit as possible. Those world class athletes are extremely fit and use plyos and power training to get over the edge. Many of the them are also obviously dirty. Do you recommend that for young athletes too.

As you get older, if you want to remain fit...tempo, core, weight training...they all matter.

The day has twenty four hours. If you sleep eight hours, you still have sixteen hours left. If you work full time you will still have 6-8 hours left. Most world class runners don´t train more than 2-3 hours/day, so the "I don´t have time" excuse is complete BS, and just show your lack of dedication.

Relaxtakeiteasy wrote:

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of posters on here are not world class and do not have the time to train like a world class athlete. Most of us work full time or go to school full time.

Wait... I thought we shouldn't do plyos and weights because they were useless, but now we shouldn't do them because we don't have enough time?

...changing your tune now, eh?

BTW... the "not enough time" BS is the biggest half-ass cop-out that people hide behind to justify not giving their best efforts... it's bloody sad.

I say BS, because there is always enough time.

My biggest mileage weeks in the late summer/ early fall of last year were upwards of 110 miles, and I did this during a time when I was working 9 hours/day (8 1/2 hours plus 1/2 hour lunch) plus a 1 hour commute - that's 11 hours/day right there.

Add two hours for showers, breakfast, dinner, and a bit of reading, and that's 13 hours. That still left me 11 hours in the day to run and sleep, which was plenty.

Once I finished working for the summer and headed back to school, getting the miles in got a lot easier. Six courses at school doesn't even come close to comparing to my summer work in terms of time consumption.

Also, try telling Haile Gebreselassie that you can't give your best because you "don't have enough time"...

Always? There is always time? For everyone? Regardless of talent or objectives?You should make the time to do things that are important to you.You might be surprised to learn that for a lot of people, running is not important.Some people want to spend time with their families, or significant others, or go out in the evenings, or do other sports.It's not bloody sad to admit that you might have a better life outside of running.

Some Canadian wrote:

BTW... the "not enough time" BS is the biggest half-ass cop-out that people hide behind to justify not giving their best efforts... it's bloody sad.

I say BS, because there is always enough time.

No I still think they are useless. But everybody started citing the training of the top ten milers all time. The fact that so many young runners try to base their training off of these guys is another even bigger problem. But anyway, of course elites will do everything and anything. But just because elg does hurdle drills doesn't mean we all should. Nick Symmonds swims twice a week. Are we all putting are selves at a disadvantage by not swimming? Probably not he's just doing a lot of extra credit to give himself a mental edge. Krummenacker used to do strides holding his breath!!! I mean elite runners will do anything. Stember hit a plateau and actually hired a sprinting coach-the speed and power didn't do him much good.