Western States Winner is . . .

While I've only done a 50 miler, I think saying that a fast marathoner can run a good trail 100 is like saying a good miler can run a good marathon, it's just that different. Mount Washington is a great example of how flat distance times are very poor indicators of success at mountain, ultra, or technical trail races. I should get Dave Dunham to chime in with some good examples of fast marathoners who have done very poorly at Mt. Washington. With my own experience, I've finished right behind a 46 minute 10 mile running Kenyan at Washington (my PR is 54), and beat people with much superior road PR's at trail and mountain races all the time. Even if they trained for it, many fast marathoners would still not do well in a trail ultra. Being good at flat road running does not mean you can run trails, hills, or much longer distances, period.

I wonder if there's a sprinter's forum somewhere -- and they're patting themselves on the back for being so much faster than marathon runners and how they could deliver a swift beating if only they bothered to dabble in your silly distance

Great post by Ben Nephew - and so true. It's very different. I'm a mediocre road racer, but any "joe not that great road racer" kicks my butt on a course like Mt. Washington. All good experience - humbling, a great ego check, and a very good learning/respect experience. I would imagine anybody who knocks an ultra may learn a great deal about themselves if they ran one.

Ben Nephew wrote:

While I've only done a 50 miler, I think saying that a fast marathoner can run a good trail 100 is like saying a good miler can run a good marathon, it's just that different. ...

I think in general a good miler could run a good marathon with proper training. In fact, I think the guys at the top of todays marathon world could run decent miles with the right training.

black rainbow wrote:

turkey leg wrote:

Lets see a list of marathon PRs of the Western States finishers. That should give us an idea if there is a correlation.

Anyone have any leads on that type of info?

What does the marathon PR of a WS finisher have to do with the price of tea in china?

what part of "they are not even close to being the same race" don't you get?

I know. You don't! I invite everyone here to take part in the memorial day training camp they have. It's open to all runners and usually gives you a chance to run about 70 miles of the course over a 3 day period.

Do that, then tell me what part of the marathon that weekend reminded you of.

Wow. How did I hit a nerve with that? All I was asking is if we can look at the results of 100 mile races and compare those runners' marathon PRs, we may or may not be able to see some correlation between the two.

For example, if the best 100 mile racers also had the best marathon PRs of the field, then that would suggest a link between the two skills and it would be likely that if an elite marathoner trained for several years like an elite 100 mile racer, the nod should go to the former elite marathoner.

By the way, how can you argue with a request for information to make a educated guess?

you keep saying that a 2:20 guy gets beat all the time. so what? i am talking about 2:05 guys. there is a vast difference between the two.

i still refuse to belive that tergat would not break the record. he can run on even ground (5 world xc titles) and he runs 30 mile runs in the mountains while training for a road marathon.

and lastly, the remark about sprinters and marathoners is just silly. a marathoner and an ultra marathoner are using the same systems, same muscle tissue. whereas a sprinter is nothing like a distance runner.

kevin

ooppps i meant UNevenground

please mister wrote:

I am willing to bet that any world class marathon would destroy the record for the WS100.

They are just a different level of talent, period.

All respect to those guys who run the WS 100 (my friend dropped out today at 34 miles, which is exactly 1 mile farther than I have ever run) so I have seen the committment that goes into preparing for a 100 miler.

But if you think that KG or PT would not break the record you are either delusional or a troll.

Sure, they have a different level of talent, but isn't it also a different kind of race? If you said that top marathoners could crush the 50K, 50mile, and 100K records then I wouldn't argue (100 mile.... I dunno). But the WS is pretty hard-core trail running. Getting a consistent pace is hard. Are good milers automatically good steeplechasers? The WS is one big mother of a steeplechase with variable weather, no sleep, and eating on the run added in to it.

It's worth noting that even an ultra-running beast like Kouros did well, but not superbly, the one time he tried Western States (and was beaten by several inferior marathon runners).

local knowledge is quite important at western states, as is strong hiking skills. kouros is without question the greatest male ultra runner in history. his lack of hiking skills and local trail knowledge puts him at a disadvantage in something like western states, he's a pure runner. same holds for abe on the women's side. she's a pure runner and without a doubt the fastest female ultra runner of all time. could she have won western? i doubt it, she's a runner not a hiker. two different worlds; ultra-distance running for speed and trail ultras on rugged hiking trails.

In all fairness, comparing anyone to a 2:05 marathoner (only five people have ever run a 2:05:xx, remember) is a cheap shot. Someone who can run that fast obviously shows unworldly ability which would probably lead to some success at WS.

The thing is, people at this site are forever predicting how well someone could do in his or her off-event. And it's all pretty stupid then, too.

- - - - - - - wrote:

local knowledge is quite important at western states, as is strong hiking skills. kouros is without question the greatest male ultra runner in history. his lack of hiking skills and local trail knowledge puts him at a disadvantage in something like western states, he's a pure runner. same holds for abe on the women's side. she's a pure runner and without a doubt the fastest female ultra runner of all time. could she have won western? i doubt it, she's a runner not a hiker. two different worlds; ultra-distance running for speed and trail ultras on rugged hiking trails.

The winner at Western States is hiking VERY little. Probably some of the climb up to Devil's Thumb (1400' in 1.5 miles) and that's about it.

Running in the mountains is very different than mountain running.

kevinb wrote:

...and he runs 30 mile runs in the mountains while training for a road marathon.

kevinb wrote:

you keep saying that a 2:20 guy gets beat all the time. so what? i am talking about 2:05 guys. there is a vast difference between the two.

kevin

maybe i am missing something, but is your argument the very best of the very best all time marathoners would win WS if they ran it?

"2:05 guys" are the elite of the elite marathon runners. only ONE person in the world ran a marathon in under 2:05:59 in all of 2006, and NONE did in 2005 or 2004. no one did it before 1999 and in fact the record is only 5 SECONDS faster than 2:05 - 2:04:55.

again, maybe it is me, but i dont get the point you are trying to make.

A couple examples if you will:

Matt Carpenter destroyed the Leadville record with training runs no longer than 30 miles. Leadville is a less technical course and Matt is obviously a strong mountain runner, but its telling that he didn't train for 100m in the "traditional" manner.

Greg Crowther, who admits that he himself suffers on trails, beat some of the worlds best ultra runners (guys with marathon prs in the 2:1X) at Sunmart 50M last year. He said they looked like they didn't look very comfortable on the terrain (and Sunmart is as runnable as any trail ultra). Of course they took a wrong turn for a bit as well.

But that is part of trail running, its not just all out, rhythm running like on the road. Fueling on the run is a major factor. Muscle damage is HUGE factor. I wouldn't be surprised if the body type of a Geb or Tergat just couldn't handle the pounding for that long.

Again, its all moot. We'll never see a fast marathoner in their prime attempt a trail ultra. And I have no problem with that. Who really cares?

The whole discussion arises because wannabes who are wasting their time on a message board instead of focusing on their own training need to feel better about their waste of a life by putting down someone else's accomplishment which they deem pathetic.

The irony is that running (track and elite road running)is considered a fringe sport in our country that the general populace thinks is a worthless endeavor. Now all of sudden tracksters/marathoners are giddy that there is someone they can take their frustrations out on.