Question for running fast at age 47?

Thanks, skinnbones.

What were your best distances/times in your younger life?

skinnbones:

I was going to ask if you still did your training on treadmills - I read a 2004 article that said as much.

I also do a similar workout to your third on the treadmill, where I increase the speed in 0.1 MPH every 0.5 mi, starting near my HM pace ending up at close to my 5k pace after 6-7 miles. If I can do this for 7 miles, then I increase the starting pace in the next workout, and so far my HM and 5k times have been dropping accordingly. This is a pretty tough workout, so I only do it once per week.

As far as the speedwork I mentioned in my earlier post, I should qualify that it should really come after you have built up a solid aerobic base. I am keeping my weeks as high intensity before I taper down in ~2 weeks to peak for a key race. Then I'll build up the mileage and do longer intervals one a week as well as the tempo runs.

Yes, I still run on the treadmill quite a bit. I do all of my faster workouts at 5:30 am so treadmills seem to work well for that.

A side benefit of running on treadmills is that I can more easily manage a bad habit of mine; overstriding. I seem to cut my stride back a bit on the treadmill and have trained my body to turn my legs over at a faster cadence. I used to be a 170 foot strikes/min guy. Now, I'm around 178. On the treadmill, when I think about it, I can get to 182.

I like your progressive workout. My body likes that kind of work as well and it seems I can get more quality out of the session when I start a bit slower than my goal pace.

ya but? wrote:

skinnbones,

I understand completely why you have gone to only tempo type workouts...I have pretty much done the same....but, since this discussion is about trying to improve 5k speed, what has been your experience in tempo-only training in acheiving desent times in the 5k? If it's not getting too personal could you use actual race times in a response as that may/or not make more relevance. I can do the same;

lifetime best-13:58,

best as a master-15:10(doing 2+ rep. sessions/wk of 2-3-400's),

current best/fitness-16:10(long tempo's only)

My point I guess is I don't think I can get down under 16 doing tempo's only.....would like to hear I'm wrong though!

I would agree. For some runners it is necessary to workout at 5k pace in order to race at it, especially if your mileage is relatively low.

"Besides running, I am very, very active with biking.."

Any Duathlons in your future race plans? ;)

How much are you riding?

I'm 47 too. What mileage/week do you recommend?

My week looks like:

M - 6mi easy

T - track (varies from 400s to 1600s, eg., 12x400 or 4x1600)

W - 6mi easy

Th - tempo; 2mi warm-up/down; 4mi tempo

F - 6mi easy

S - rest

Sun - 13-15miles, sometimes slow, sometimes easy out, hard back;

That adds up to only 45mpw.

From what I'm hearing I should be at about 60-70mpw. Recommendations?

No plans for a duathlon as there are not that many in my area. I've considered triathlon and actually competed in one a few weeks ago. I find that I'm very tired after the swim (because I'm a bad swimmer) and it's hard to recover. I may try a longer triathlon this summer but no plans yet.

Here's a typical week for me. This summer, I'll ride more outside so I'll be in the 120 miles/week range. I copied this from my training log:

M - AM - 25 X 100 swim

M - PM - 20:00 row, 10:00 slideboard, light lifting

T - 3 W/U, strides, 4 SS 5:00 pace, t-mill (HR 164, 66, 70, 74) Rt knee complaining a bit, iced. 8 total.

T - PM - 30:00 solid bike, 10:00 jump. Body feels great. Knee fair - iced again. Stretched.

W - AM - 5X150, 15X100 swim - Arms tired!

W - PM - 20:00 Row, lifted, 5:00 slideboard

Th - AM 3 W/U, strides, 6 SS 5:15 pace (t-mill). Not comfortable so I quit. Went to bed too late :( 10 total

Th - PM - Bike 30:00 solid effort

Fr - AM - 20X100 swim

Fr - PM - bike 20:00 solid (this effort is about HR 140), lifted

Sa - AM - 3 w/U, strides, 6 Mile buildup, 5:20, 17, 17, 13, 10, 4:56. Last M was hard. Comfortable before that. Cadence OK - had to concentrate last M. 10 total.

Sa - PM - Played r-ball 2 hrs - way too long!

Su - 43 M bike ez. Legs OK. Back sore from R-ball.

I don't think I'd worry too much about the miles. 45 MPW with a couple of higher intensity days and a long run is enough for most master runners. I had the opportunity to talk to Mark Coogan yesterday, and while he doesn't compete that much anymore, he averages 35 MPW and can still run the 4:20s for the mile and 16 flat for a 5k. I know several other elite masters who have been able to sustain their running largely due to not doing high mileage. On the other hand, Johnny Rotten on the masters weekend thread thrives on high miles. Listen to your body and do what works for you.

Summer usually looks something like this. This was from last June:

M - 25 X 100 swim

M - PM - 30:00 XC ski machine

Tu - 3 W/U, strides, 4 SS 5:10 t-mill, quads sore? 8 total.

Tu - PM - 55 miles HARD. Very strong group. Almost wrecked in the sprint w/Bobby

We - 22 X 100 swim

We - PM - 30:00 XC, row ez. Body sore/tired. Wonder why?

Th - Hill reps fairly ez. Leg tired from ride.

Th - PM - 10:00 row, 30:00 roller ride ez

F - 10 X 100, 10 X 50 swim

F - PM - 15:00 jump rope, lifted, slideboard

Sa - 3 W/U, strides, 4M SS on track, alone, 5:13, 16, 20, 20 L @ 8.0 at end. Too high. 400jog then 4 X 400 (65, 66, 65, 63) w/200 jog. 10 total.

Su - 56 miles ez w/Dan.

My 2 cents. I just turned 49.

The last couple of years I've been running upper-mid 16's for 5k. I pretty much follow Daniels' 5k-15k plan. I peak at around 80 mpw and drop it as racing approaches. I like lots of tempos. I'll start with stuff like 3 or 4 x 1 mile or 15 mins + 10 mins, and progress to 6 x 1 mile or 3 x 2 miles, and also use the longer and slightly slower version (up to 45 minutes constant). I like some 200/400 rep stuff early in the season to get my legs going. Before that (in the winter) I'll do some AT runs (one minute slower than 5k pace) as I find them to be a gentle introduction to speed that leave me fresh, plus some one minute hills on the treadmill (basically rep work) a second day of the week. Usually a long run every week (12 in mid winter, extending to about 16 by spring). Around this time of the year I'll doing some interval work like 5 x 1200 at 5k pace (can't this year as my hamstring has been a problem since early winter). I find those to be tough but important if I want to run a good 5k. Tempos are key though, partly for the body and partly for the mind (the extended runs).

A few years back I tried a program by Owen Anderson that had a lot of VO2max interval stuff. I got fast very quick, but the peak was very, very short-lived and I was dead afterwards. I went back to Daniels. Too much interval work will drain me.

Oh yeah, I'm 5'10" and 142 when in racing shape. I'd like to break 16 at this age too, but I guess time will tell, eh?

16x wrote: For some runners it is necessary to workout at 5k pace in order to race at it, especially if your mileage is relatively low.

Maybe so if your mileage is low. My mileage is typically moderate (~ 70 mpw avg) and this year I've raced a couple of 5ks and hit paces I'd never even approached in training. Similarly, last summer I PR'd at 800 without ever having run 800 pace in training. I think there's something to be said for aerobic strength instead of/in addition to anaerobic ability, and not everyone needs to run a lot of race pace stuff to race well. I would think this would be more true for more-fast twitch types, and less true for our speed-challenged ST brethren/sistren. :-)

congrats on the 800 pr Pete!

I have noticed older guys tend to lose stride rate and compensate with longer strides. It's a good thing you are doing to focus on that as a part of your training. I am taller and so it's harder for me to keep up a good rate, but 176 is usually where I end up. I always start out slower in any given run, but try and maintain a high stride rate no matter what the speed- even right at the beginning of a workout.

It's a good habit to get into.

Stride rate vs stride length? hmmmm it varies all the time for me. When I have more speed, my stride length is longer, but I can only have a longer and faster stride for middle distance races.

I think your stride length is determined as much by the type of training and racing you do as it is by other factors.

Obviously your age does shorten your stride, as does gaining weight.

16x wrote: congrats on the 800 pr Pete!

Umm, that was last year. :-(

Maybe another one this year though! :-)

Jack Daniels preaches this quite a bit.

I've been locked between more shorter (5mile) but faster runs and slower longer runs.

When I was in my 20s I would run 35mpw (5mi x 5days plus 10 on Sunday) but at least 4 of those 5 milers were v. fast pace (start at 6min/mi and finish at 5min/mi). This worked for me as I raced well.

Older now and with different training buddies who are always training for marathon and 1/2 marathon, so they do longer runs (minimum 1hr). Seems like now I have no speed.

I haven't been able to decide if I should start doing shorter and faster or just up my mileage.

Thoughts?

jeb:

I think it is important to not lose track of your speed side. ("keep in touch with your speed")

Even though I am doing my training at longer and slower speeds than is typical for me I do strides after my runs 3x week, and one day of the week I warm up, go to the track and do either 10x200 or 8x300, getting faster every 2.

It is a low mileage day, but breaks up the monotony of running slow.

jeb,

I would introduce faster sessions (less than one mile repeats) to turn your legs over. As we age, it's harder (people are less motivated) to work these muscle systems so everyone just runs more. I don't think that's a good solution.