NO MORE RABBITS IN ZURICH!!

Yeah, well you can kiss any chance for Webb breaking Scott's mile AR goodbye ... as well as any sub-13:00 5K by an American for another 20 years at least. Teg's not running 13:04.99 again or anywhere close either.

I agree with you. Prize money is low, so people think runners don't get paid. They don't talk about appearance fees.

I do think there should be some fee. Maybe they should set a reasonable limit based on qualifications- so much for an Olympic/World medalist, world record holder, etc. Then, lesser runners can at least get expenses and work their way to the top.

In sports like golf and tennis (and even poker- I know a pro) up and comers have sponsors who they hope to drop when they reach a certain level.

I think it's better that the race pay expenses. I also think that if you have certain credentials you are a draw and deserve some money up front.

But imagine a major road race with limited expense money- the prize money can go deeper, giving up and coming runners a chance at real money.

girlie poo wrote:

Yeah, well you can kiss any chance for Webb breaking Scott's mile AR goodbye ... as well as any sub-13:00 5K by an American for another 20 years at least. Teg's not running 13:04.99 again or anywhere close either.

running sub-13 and finishing 6th doesn't mean as much as running 13:12 and winning against a very good field. The latter will give you confidence going into the Olympics or WC.

this mentality is entirely wrong - one thing companies and sports team at the top learn is that they must always be reevaluating what works and what doesn't work to stay at the top

change is a certainty... i applaud them for evolving and staying 1 up on other meets by being flexible

sticking to what you always do is a sure fire way to not stay the world's most popular meet

i actually live in zurich - i am more excited about the meet this year, i love when it is a race and it comes down to a kick

and ttc, I disagree, many of american's true successes have been when they have not gone to the front of the pack

think deena and meb in the marathon at the olympics...

have we had any other successes in championship races besides those two

if you're thinking white guys, mottram usually does the smart thing and see how the race unfolds before he goes to the front

anEconomist wrote:

and ttc, I disagree, many of american's true successes have been when they have not gone to the front of the pack

I'm not saying that leading is the only way to succeed, although my posts mistakenly implied it. My point is, many U.S. runners consider it as a non-option, and as a "sacrificial lamb" position. But guys like Hall, Webb, K.Robinson and plenty of Africans are showing that it can be a great option for the right racers. It allows you to dictate the race at your pace and to have an open lane ahead of you when it's time to move.

If you have the best PR in a field, then the best strategy is to tow the field from the starting gun and run the best time you can. Let the opposition fall off 1 by 1. If I'm racing against a faster runner, I'm pretty darned happy if he keeps it comfortable and avoids the front. If I'm racing slower runners, then 99% of the time, they won't be around if I simply run hard.

ttc wrote:

If you have the best PR in a field, then OFTEN the best strategy is to tow the field from the starting gun and run the best time you can.

Nothing's 100%.... but no one here will let it slide unless I state it.

Coach D, I totally and utterly disagree. Zurich will always be a great meet. I was there in 2004 and watched ElGuerrouj's last-ever loss. Great race. I think they were under 12 seconds at the 100 meter mark.

One of the basic problems of the financial side of track is the vast majority of the funds going to the very very top athletes such as Powell and Bekele. How much does the top hammer thrower get paid to show up? Probably not very much.

Should the world record holder get US$50,000 to show up while a "common" 12:55 Kenyan get the goose egg? I don't think so, but this is what happens. What if the 12:55 guy has the race of his life and beats Bekele. Should Bekele still get his US$50,000? I don't think so.

One of the interesting things about the Zurich meet was that the fans in the cheap seats near the discus cage were going crazy for the discus throwers!

What the Zurich organizers are trying to do is create more of a level playing field for the athletes, and also try to make something more interesting for the fans.

you keep talking about what should happen, what is fairsince when are sports not run like a business? since when are salaries fair? or life for that matter?sure, maybe it doesn't seem right that bekele should get so much money $$$ ethically BUT i guarantee he puts people in the seats and sponsors at the table more than the unknown 12:55 kenyan guynow what is fair?

I think it's time that the athletes learn to run very fast w/o rabbits. A perfect evening in Zurich with thousands cheering should be more than enough. Now we have multiple rabbits in 1 race and even pacers in the marathon, including males in all-female races.

getting rid of rabbits is definitely a good thing. it would be a bad thing if all races got rid of rabbits. but there are way way too many rabbited races. bekele doesn't deserve a ton of money just for showing up to a meet and now winning. if he wins he deserves money. and from the article it said that there will still be appearance fees they will just be smaller. i agree no appearances fees would be bad. but the prizes for winning races should always be much bigger than the prize just for showing up. it reminds me of that keanu reaves baseball movie where he said some terrible quote like "you blow me away with your ability to show up." that quote is as stupid as throwing tons of money at athletes just to show up to a meet and then give the actual winners far less.

and for you people that think there won't be any fast races you are crazy. people don't just wanna win, they wanna run fast. and the faster you run the better chance you'll have to win. these elite runners need to remember how to run on their own. thats a very important quality in a runner. afterall you're never gonna blow anyone away or set world records if you can't run fast on your own.

zurich changing this up is definitely a good thing for the sport. it'd be nice to see a few more meets do this.

I think that this thread needs the input of somebody who actually raced at the elite level.

It's really a matter of opinion and what you like to watch more. Personally I would rather watch an evenly paced WR or WR attempt than a 5000 meter race won by Bekele in 13:17.

Don't worry people. We'll still some fast paced races. It may take a time or two but some guys will figure out that they can't beat guys like Heshko off of a slow tactical race and will push the pace, to give themselves a better chance. Two or three guys get togther after some dismal 7th or 8th place finishes and they decide to trade leading laps to ensure a quick pace. Thats how it use to happen and it will once again.

Mtn Dew wrote:

Rabbits rabbit because there is a finacial incentive to do so. Meets usually pay rabbits to hit times. If the meet pays most of its money to winners then people will try to win the meet.

This will result in some very fun finishes but probably not a lot of fast times.

I doubt they'll out and out ban rabbits, but why would a rabbit run if he's not getting paid to do it from the meet?

Not always true. Little bekele rabits for his brother, not for incentives (although i'm sure he gets some) but for times. It's not uncommon these days for the best of the best athletes to bring their own rabbits regardless of if the meet pays them.

So I guess that we just need to get every pro's little brother/sister to the track.

anEconomist wrote:

you keep talking about what should happen, what is fair

since when are sports not run like a business? since when are salaries fair? or life for that matter?

sure, maybe it doesn't seem right that bekele should get so much money $$$ ethically BUT i guarantee he puts people in the seats and sponsors at the table more than the unknown 12:55 kenyan guy

now what is fair?

This is part of the business issue. But the main issue to me is that the increased prize purse may result in a sizeable decrease in what the athletes get (once you factor in the appearance fees). They did NOT say that the appearance fees are totally going away, so I take some of this as a negotiating point with the agents, and if the athletes that Zurich needs (Asafa, Wariner, etc.) refuse to sign without appearance fees, the fees will have to return. But if the appearance fees are eliminated or reduced by more than the prize money is increased then the new schedule is a cut in pay for the athletes. People on letsrun frequently complain about how much less track athletes make than NBA and NFL athletes, and a cut in race income is not the way to rectify the matter.

I think part of the change is a reflection of the perception of people running the sport that drug testing is now more effective, thus world records will become less likely, thus they need a new way to build fan interest There would be less incentive to cheat if prize money was more equitably distributed in positions 1-8 (and perhaps they're doing that), but the simple fact is that people watch track meets to see stars perform, and those people will (and should) expect to be paid more.

I have a feeling that folks like HSI and Skeets are NOT going to take this lying down.

right. people do want to see stars perform. and yes those stars should get paid more. and if they don't perform they shouldn't get paid more. so with what you said the new zurich way where athletes get paid to perform and not just show up makes much more sense. add in smaller appearance fees for athletes so that someone like bekele does get a bit more when he wins than some surprise winner in another race.

and it sounds like this is exactly what zurich is doing. which is awesome. it'll make for much more interesting races. and i don't know why some people are saying that elite 5k's are gonna be won by someone like bekele in like 13:15 instead of 12:45 - 12:55. not every non-rabbited race is a slow tactical race. and when elite runners actually have to start running their own race without just following rabbits in most of their races the non-rabbited races will speed up. but if a bekele type person can't run fast times with out pacers then guess what, other people will step up and run those fast times. races don't just automatically get way slower without rabbits. if a runner really wants to be a champion and a winner they had better be able to run out on there own, or else they are never gonna run fast and they are gonna be left behind.

No one has ever broke 3:50 in the mile in a non-rabbited race. It seems like a lot of 5Ks will go down in 13:05-13:10 if the rabbit ban spreads to other Grand Prix meets. Realistically, the only way Americans will ever break 13 is in a time-trialed race in the jetstream of a half dozen east Africans. It's not gonna happen at the Cardinal Invite, in other words.

How they gonna make hassenpfeffer?