Does it matter how fast you do your long runs?

I never told that running 39 km in 2:07 is something specific for 3000 steeple. Every top champion has something particular distinguishing him from other athletes, but all have an unbelieveble mental strength. The reason because Shaheen wants to do this (in my program never there are more than 25 km during the track season, but he sometimes needs psychologically run fast longer than 2 hr for being sure about his endurance) is essentially a mental reason. For example, Gelindo Bordin, after winning Olympic Marathon in Seoul 1988, always needed to run 2 times, before every top Marathon (for example before winning Boston in 1990) about 50km. His coach, Luciano Gigliotti (that for me is like a brother), well knew that it was a useless workout, under physiological point of view. However, for Gelindo was something too much important for not doing it.

I told you that Shaheen ran 37k in 2:02 one week after winning Golden Gala in July with 7:56. So, everybody can think that this training is useless, but nobody can suppose that was damageous, looking at his result in World Championships.

The same I use with Dorcus Inzikuru, that normally run 2 hr every week, also if she uses a pace slower than Shaheen (for Dorcus we speak of 4:10 per km, that, if we suppose a value of 14:50 in 5k = 2:58 per km, represents 60% of her effort, while Shaheen, a value of 12:40 = 2:32 per km, running at 3:15 uses 70% of his effort, related to 5 km).

So, if we look at a specialist able running 15:00 (3:00 per km), 70% of effort is 3:54 per km, that means 37 km in about 2:24. Personally, I don't think that this training is very hard, if somebody uses 3 years for building his endurance and mentally becomes able to run for long time.

When you see some workout of top runners, don't do the mistake to look at their speed like something valid for everybody. A regeneration day for an athlete of 26:30 in 10000m is, morning and afternoon, 1 hr at 3:30 / 3:35, that are 17 + 17 km = 34, and for him is recovering. If we use the same proportion (26:30 is 2:39 per km, and 3:30 is about 63% of his speed), we can see that, for an athlete able running 30:00, his speed when he runs at regeneration pace may be slower than 4:00 per km, and this doesn't seem very hard for a good athlete.

Renato:

Thank you for your detailed and extremely interesting posts. We\'re very fortunate to have somebody like you sharing information.

I\'m genuinely curious to know what your opinion is of the so-called \"low heart rate training\" propagated by Hadd and, in particular, Maffetone. A smart and inquisitive runner named Jesse Leitner has been sharing the results of his one-man experiment with this sort of training on the \"Basic Training\" forum of Coolrunning.com and there\'s no question that he\'s seen amazing results from his willingness to put in lots and lots of easy miles--very easy miles, at heart rates of 72% and less of max. He\'s a marathoner and ultramarathoner; in one year he lowered his 50 mile time by two hours. He\'s non-elite, as he\'d be the first to admit, but he\'s serious and dedicated, and he\'s reported his results in as lucid and thoughtful a way as anybody in cyberspace. The foundation of his training--and Maffetone\'s, as he interprets is--is aerobic running, especially long runs, at a pace that is rigorously kept to a fat-burning zone, so that threshold paces of any sort are a no-no. Not just easy runs, in other words, but easier-than-necessary runs. Deliberately, ruthlessly gentle runs.

This training method seems diametrically opposed to your own. I\'d love to know what you think, in any case. Those who wish to read the entire FAQ can access it via hyperlink from a thread on \"Basic Training\" at coolrunning.com that contains the word \"Maffetone.\"

Here are the first few paragraphs from his FAQ:

\"Low heart rate training FAQ

Here are some of my answers to frequently asked questions for low heart rate training, generally pertinent to Maffetone\'s approach.

Disclaimer: read at your own risk. Author is not responsible for any health conditions, reduction in performance, injuries, death, or humiliation that results from reading or following this advice. For professional advice, see a physician and get a coach.

1. What might indicate that I could really use some low heart rate training?

You have poor aerobic fitness, which doesn’t necessarily mean that you aren’t a good or a fast runner. You can be running 2:45 marathons and have poor aerobic fitness (which means you’re probably more capable of 2:15 or faster marathons and hence you can probably run a 5k in about 14 minutes). Maybe you run a 20 minute 5k, but a 4 hour marathon. Here are some possible indicators:

a. There is no pace “relationship” between your shorter distance races and your longer distance ones. What does this mean? There’s a good explanation in Hadd’s article below, but there are some rules of thumb to the effect that, if you assume you are properly trained for the distances you are racing, your pace will decrease by the same amount, each time you double the distance of your race, usually somewhere between 12 and 16 seconds, depending probably on genetics. Therefore, on the lower end, one who runs 5 miles at an 8 min/mi pace would run 10 miles at 8:16/mile, and 20 miles at 8:32/mile. The relationship may degrade some, particularly as the distances get longer in between (say 5k to marathon, or even half to marathon), but you should still see a relationship. If the math is getting too messy for you, you can use a common pace calculator, such as that at McMillan Running and see whether your short distance times project out to long distances. If your marathon is more than 20 minutes slower than what your half predicts, then there’s a good chance you have an aerobic problem, assuming (1) you completed a full training program for the marathon and (2) the marathon was not in abnormally high heat and/or humidity or had other significant environmental factors.

b. You are incapable of running at low heart rates, for example, you find you have to walk at a heart rate of 180-your age.

c. You always burn out somewhere between mile 16 and 22 in a marathon, no matter how much carbohydrate you take in.

d. You have difficulty completing your long training runs and your pace slows down in the last several miles, just in order to finish them.

e. You are completely shot at the end of your long training runs, or even your short runs. (You probably will be after most forms of speed work, that’s expected, to a degree).

f. You are sore most of the time and possibly plagued by minor injuries frequently, or you get sick quite often.

g. Your race times are not improving – it seems as though you are working harder and harder in training and nothing’s getting better.

h. You are very reliant on carbohydrates to get you through training runs.

2. What are some of the relevant websites?

Mark Allen on Ironman Live

Maffetone

Hadd

Mark Allen - duathlon.com

Matt Russ

Pfitzinger on basebuilding

No carbs just before running article

3. What benefits might I reap from low HR training?

a. You’ll train your body to use fat for fuel at a reasonably fast running pace (reasonably fast means different things to different people). With enough of this training, this means that you can preserve your precious carbohydrate stores throughout very long races. You can avoid “the wall” and “bonking” in marathons and longer races.

b. Running at a much lower level of effort, aerobically, will be much less taxing on your body, even if you end up as fast as or faster than your original training pace.

c. You will strengthen your legs and hips tremendously.

d. You will be adding an additional fuel tank that you didn’t realize that you had.

e. You will develop significant aerobic speed, which means you may reach speeds that you were doing before low HR training at very high level of effort, with ease.

f. You will eliminate as strong of a reliance on carbs during most races, and certainly training runs.

4. Scientifically, what is happening with this approach?

You are training your aerobic system, which includes using more fat (vs carbohydrate) for fuel and using slow-twitch muscle fibers as well as building mitochondria.

5. Will this make me a faster runner?

It may not make you faster, but it will help you build aerobic speed, converting much of the capability of your anaerobic system to your aerobic system. Since your anaerobic system cannot sustain you for very long, this means that you will be able to sustain higher speeds for longer periods of time.\"

Here's the hyperlink to Jesse's FAQ. The excerpt above doesn't do it justice:

http://spaces.msn.com/formationflier/

You say running easy for 2-3 days helps remove lactate from muscles. There goes your credibility.

Why would Shaheen need a mental boost after running 7:56 for the steeple, isn't the awesome time at the 3k steeple enough, it would be for most. As his coach I don't know why you allowed him to run 37k in 2:02 after a great race, I would think some praise from his coach would be enough gratitude. Honestly Renato, do you really believe that a 15 min 5k runner doing 37k in 2:24 is not very hard, I some a few runners of that ability and that run would put them in the ground. An effort of that magnitude is definitely not required of a 15 min 5k runner, how many of them do you coach?

Here's an excellent side-by-side evaluation of various philosophies regarding long run pace:

http://www.competitiverunner.com/long_run_pace2.html?PHPSESSID=eed36a03d987e01df4a2bf3ec76ab683

Slight correction: Here's p. 1:

http://www.competitiverunner.com/long_run_pace1.html?PHPSESSID=eed36a03d987e01df4a2bf3ec76ab683

Don't get me wrong Renato, I appreciate your knowledge and information you have provided here but I wish you could relate your training philosophy to the 15-17 min 5k runner, which I suspect accounts for 99% of the posters here.

Oasis:

I am no Renato Canova but in my experience the 15-17 minutes 5k runners and the 32-38 minutes 10k runners need more time to recover from long fast runs because of the amount of time they are spending to do these long fast runs. As you know a 13:30 5k guy will cover 30-35 kilometers at marathon pace or close to it in significantly less time than the 15:00 -17:00 5K runner.

So you have a situation where the 15:00 - 17:00 5K runner is running a fast long run at a similar effort to the 13:30 guy but the 15:00-17:00 5k runners are spending more time at these efforts which in most cases requires for longer recoveries after these efforts for the 15:00-17:00 runners or the 2:30-3:00 hour marathoners.

In my opinion the 15:00 - 17:00 runners need to first become accustom to doing long relax runs of 1:45-2:30 for maybe the first 6-8 weeks of training. After these it is essential they can start including some 20-40 minutes at marathon pace at the end of the long runs. This will provide a similar stimulus to that of the end of a marathon.

of course the reps of 1000/2000/3000/5000 in the middle of the week like renato says also works for most runners of all levels.

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

If you want to beat your PB, you must run LONG and FAST. Running fast intervals and slow long run is not enough.

Ohhh that's sexy! 'Cause that's exactly what I do! Ha, and the letsrun crowd was starting to make me feel bad for hammering on those 18 milers.

I try not to respond to 99% of the crap you post, but I will on this one.

Why the f**k wouldn't you want to hear from the coach who coaches the best runners in the world?

It's like a hardcore basketball fan getting to pick the brain of Phil Jackson or someone similar.

By the way, ever notice how excited the people on ESPN.com get when a live chat is advertised? (A live chat with someone far less established in their sport.)

So in short, pay attention LnL and you might be able to crack 3 on of these years, ya tool.

oasis wrote:

Why would Shaheen need a mental boost after running 7:56 for the steeple, isn't the awesome time at the 3k steeple enough, it would be for most. As his coach I don't know why you allowed him to run 37k in 2:02 after a great race, I would think some praise from his coach would be enough gratitude. Honestly Renato, do you really believe that a 15 min 5k runner doing 37k in 2:24 is not very hard, I some a few runners of that ability and that run would put them in the ground. An effort of that magnitude is definitely not required of a 15 min 5k runner, how many of them do you coach?

At my best I'm 15:40's for 5km, based off of that I could run 4.1km in 12:40, same as what Renato predicts for Shaheen to do 5km. 70% of my 4.1km pace is 7:03/mile, 7:03/mile for a two hour run is not hard at all for me.

Do the math with your times and you'll see that the run isn't as hard as you think. 37km in 2:02 may seem incredible to us, but as 12:40/7:50 runner it really isn't.

I don't know about anyone else, but this thread makes me want to jump out of my chair and go hammer out a run.

Is anyone else here pumped up or what?

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

douche bag daryl wrote:

I try not to respond to 99% of the crap you post, but I will on this one.

Why the f**k wouldn't you want to hear from the coach who coaches the best runners in the world?

It's like a hardcore basketball fan getting to pick the brain of Phil Jackson or someone similar.

By the way, ever notice how excited the people on ESPN.com get when a live chat is advertised? (A live chat with someone far less established in their sport.)

So in short, pay attention LnL and you might be able to crack 3 on of these years, ya tool.

Riddle me this douche bag. How do you intend on comprehending anything he says when you can't even get the f***ing point I was making?

Everyone likes to hear what he says just like many others who post here. But the point is do some have to climb so far up his ass that only their legs are showing?

This is a great conversation, whether or not you agree with all that is being said.

To add to why the 37k effort is easy(relatively speaking) for Shaheen: He is a professional runner who has been training at a high level for some time. A lot of 15 minute 5k guys are nowhere as near trained as Shaheen. His strength levels are huge. You have to remember this when reading through Canova's posts. He is not training college guys who have been training moderetly serious for 1 or 2 years.

It seems like Renato made a slight mistake, 2:02 for 37km would actually be around 76.5% of Shaheen's 5km pace. This would make my "equivalent" pace to be 6:27 per mile, a bit faster but still a comfortable steady pace on a good day.

I agree on the faulty math--I am not following Renato's calculations.

Also, Shaheen's run is not in step with the initial post by Renato claiming that the steady long run should be at 85% of 5k pace. As it was pointed out above, Shaheen's 37k run was at roughly 76-77% of his 5k pace.

This is a great thread incidentally, and I am only questioning just so I can get clarification.

Thanks to all contributing.

same here, can anyone clarify?i do my easy runs at about 75% of 5K pace... which is also the speed I do my long runs at...it seems to me that Renato claims that I should be doing fast long runs, but by this criteria - I am already doing fast long runs85% and 75% is a big difference...

john pavlon wrote:

I agree on the faulty math--I am not following Renato's calculations.

Also, Shaheen's run is not in step with the initial post by Renato claiming that the steady long run should be at 85% of 5k pace. As it was pointed out above, Shaheen's 37k run was at roughly 76-77% of his 5k pace.

This is a great thread incidentally, and I am only questioning just so I can get clarification.

Thanks to all contributing.