i also believe i remember todd williams running the 30/40 for 4 miles back in the mid 90s. so you figure if you are running 27:31 which is todds pr you are running 50 straight 33 second 200 meters so if pre ran 27 laps which is 10800 meters of 30/40s that would be an unreal workout to see, but i can believe that he did it.
Pre's 30-40 Workout
Other Running Related Topic
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tried this for the first time. did a slightly slower version of 37/47 ave...wanted 37/45 (for an average of 5:30 pace) but slowed a little for the slower 200s...in any case, i did this over 20 laps. i like it. i think it resembles a controlled fartlek (oxymoron?), and i believe it helped me.
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Centro use to give his guys this workout back in the day. I saw Andre do a 30/40 for 4000 meters and he was under 14:00 pace in practice. He was actually hitting like 28/38. That was a pretty good workout.
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I may be a bit slow, but who is Andre?? Thanks a lot.
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andre williams, formerly of UNC i believe.
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malmo wrote:
30-30s were on Monday.
30-40s were rare, not a frequent Dellinger staple as many on this thread are claiming.
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Malmo is absolutely right, but of course he was in Eugene, OR when Dellinger's men were doing these workouts, so he knows first-hand.
Dellinger's printed training schedules included 30 second 220s with 30 second rests on Monday after a main run. This was a standard workout which was used often.
The 40-30 continuous simulation drill was used sparingly as a test of fitness at the end of the winter, typically, before outdoor track season. Dellinger prescribed several other simulation workouts, too.
About the the number of laps that Pre ran in 40-30 fashion, I do not think it was 26 laps, as suggested. I've heard from older Eugene natives that Pre ran 18 laps and Salazar ran 16 laps. I think Matt Centrowitz did several laps too, but the amt I am not sure about. It would be good to have Matt contribute to this thread. Someone must know him and can ask him what went on at the U of O in it's heyday - the early to mid 1970s.
As I understand it, the Oregon simulation drills were intended to exploit strengths and reveal weaknesses of fitness and toughness. One learned to deal with changes of pace during a sustained run. This concept simulated the racing strategy employed by Vladimir Kuts of Russia who destroyed Gordon Pirie of England with surges in the 1956 Olymic Games 10,000m run.
Tinman
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Could this 30-40 workout be modified for a "3rd gear," as in 30-35-40 for example? Anyone done anything like that?
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Salazars XC training from 1978. 30/30s started in cross, continued throughout the year. No 30/40s.
Salazar XC 1978 NCAA Team Champion
9/5 - 9/11 1978 105 miles
9/5 - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles
9/6 - AM 11 miles PM 3 miles
9/7 - AM 7.5 miles PM 11.5 miles
9/8 - AM 5 miles PM 8 miles
9/9 - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles
9/10 - AM 3.5 miles, 6 x mile (5:12-4:44) w/ 400 rest PM 4 miles
9/11 - AM 4 miles PM 11 miles
--------------
9/12 - 9/18 108 miles
9/12 - AM 6 miles PM 12 miles
9/13 - AM 6 miles PM 1 mile w/u, 6 x mile (5:30, 5:00, 5:04, 4:50, 5:05, 4:50) w/400 jog, 3 miles easy
9/14 - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles
9/15 - AM 6 miles PM - 2 mile w/u, 3 x 150 steep hill, 6 miles
9/16 - AM 6 miles PM 8 miles
9/17 - AM 2.5 miles Noon, 10.5 tempo 54:15 PM 5 miles
9/18 - AM 13 miles
--------------
9/19 - 9/25 110 miles
9/19 - AM 7.5 miles PM 8.5 miles
9/20 - AM 6 miles PM 2 miles w/u, 6 x mile (4:54, 4:46, 4:46, 4:42, 4:32, 4:18) w/400 jog, 3.5 miles
9/21 - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles
9/22 - AM 7.5 miles PM 2 mile w/u, 3 sets 300 hill (e,m,h), 3.5 miles
9/23 - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles
9/24 - AM 2 mile w/u, 30th Ave Drill: 1200 @ 3:15, 3:20, 3:20 with pace in betwwen 5:30. 1 mile jog PM Sprint drill and stairs (4 miles total)
9/25 - AM 1 miles easy
---------------
9/26 - 10/2 98 miles
9/26 - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30 (28/32)
9/27 - AM 7 miles PM 4 x 1200 (3:30) w/400 jog, 3 x mile (5:10, 5:54, 4:32) w/400 jog, 3 miles
9/28 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles, then sprint drills and stairs
9/29 - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9 x hill (Laurelwood), 3 miles easy
9/30 - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles
10/1 - AM 2.5 miles 11:30 am 2 miles w/u, 10k XC race 29:22 (1st), 3 miles
10/2 - AM 13 miles
----------------
10/3 - 10/9 109 miles
10/3 - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30, sprint drills
10/4 - AM 7 miles PM 1 mile w/u, 11 miles @ 5:11, 1 mile w/d
10/5 - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30
10/6 - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 mile w/u, 9 x hill (e,m,h) 3.5 mile w/d
10/7 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/8 - AM 2.5 miles 11:00 1.5 mile w/u, 6 x mile ( 5:12, 5:07, 4:54, 4:48, 4:44, 4:31) w/400 jog, 3 mile w/d
10/9 - AM 14 miles around the Butte
----------------
10/10 - 10/16 106 miles
10/10 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/11 - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 mile w/u, 1200 (3:09 on dirt) 1.5 miles, 5 x 880/330 (2:26, 2:19, 2:15, 2:11, 2:25, 330 in 49-50) 1.5 mile w/d
10/12 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/13 - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9 x hill, 330s in 49,46,44, 3.5 mile w/d
10/14 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/15 - AM 3 miles 10:00 30th Ave Drill, 2 mile w/u, 1200 (3:12), 4 miles @ 5:17, 1200 (3:12), 4 miles, 1200 (3:15) 1 mile w/d
10/16 - AM 14 miles
-------------------
10/17 - 10/23 88 miles
10/17 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/18 - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 mile w/u, 4 x 300 uphill (49), 4 x 300 downhill (40), 3 mile w/d
10/19 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/20 - AM 5 miles PM 3 miles, mile on track (4:13), 1 mile jog, 4 x 880/330 on trail (2:26, 2:22, 2:16, 2:16, 50-48), 2 mile w/d
10/21 - AM tender knee 6 miles
10/22 - AM 4 miles PM 6 miles
10/23 - AM 13 miles
-------------------
10/24 - 10/30 100 miles
10/24 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/25 - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile w/u, 3 x 1200 (3:29, 3:23, 3:17), 1 mile jog, 2 x 880/330 on trail (2:32, 2:22, 50, 51) 1 mile w/d
10/26 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/27 - AM 7 miles PM 5 miles on XC course plus strides
10/28 - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles
10/29 - AM 3 miles 11:00 2 mile w/u, 10k XC race (3rd), 2 mile w/d
10/30 - AM 15 miles
-------------------
10/31 - 11/6 98 miles
10/31 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles, 6 x 30/30, 1 mile w/d
11/1 - AM 7 miles PM 3 mile w/u, 6 x 300 uphill/downhill (55,45), 3 miles
11/2 - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
11/3 - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 4 x 1200 (3:24, 3:22, 3:19, 3:18) w/400 jog, 2 x 880/300 on trail (2:27, 2:16)
11/4 - AM 4 miles PM 4 miles
11/5 - AM 3 miles 11:00 3 miles, 2 miles 4:12 followed by 5:12, 3 miles @ 5:12 pace, 3 x 300 (51, 49, 45), 1 mile w/d
11/6 - AM 12 miles
-------------------
11/7 - 11/13 86 miles
11/7 - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 8 x 30/30
11/8 - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 3 x 1200 ( 3:27, 3:22, 3:18) w/400 jog, 3 x 880/330 (232, 2:22, 2:16, 51, 49, 47)
11/9 - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles
11/10 - AM 5 miles PM 2 mile w/u, 3 x 300 (42,49,51), 3 miles, 3 x 300 (51,49,45), 1 mile jog
11/11 - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles
11/12 - AM 2 miles easy 11:00 Pac 8 XC 2 mile w/u, 10k race in 29:47 (3rd), 2 mile w/d
11/13 - AM 12 miles
-------------------
11/14 - 11/20 67 miles
11/14 - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles, 6 x 30/30
11/15 - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles
11/16 - AM 5 miles PM 2 mile w/u, 3 x 1200 (3:30, 3:22, 3:18), 2 x 880/330 on trail (2:30, 2:22, 51, 48), 2 mile w/d
11/17 - AM 5.5 miles PM 6.5 miles
11/18 - AM 5 miles PM 2 mile w/u, 9 x 330 (52,52,51,49,48,47,48,49,46) 1 mile w/d
11/19 - AM 3 miles easy PM 4 miles on course
11/20 - AM 4 miles
---------------------
11/21 - 11-27 54 miles
11/21 - AM 2 miles, 11:00 NCAA Championships 10k race (9th) Team won: UO 100, UTEP 105
11/22 - PM 5 miles
11/23 - PM 5 miles
11/24 - PM 5 miles
11/25 - PM 4 miles
11/26 - AM 3 miles 12:00 AAU XC 10k race (10th)
11/27 - AM 4 miles
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Another 30/40, 30/30 thread.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=1232083&thread=1231717
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this has been around and known for ages... whats bought it back up again/
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I use to run at Oregon in the early 80's. The 30/40's were usually done in mid track season maybe twice during the season. I never saw anyone do more than 10 laps because it was never the whole workout. We mostly did 2 miles (of 30/40) in 9:20 then headed out for a 8 mile run then came back and did 300's. A Classic Oregon workout back then.
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I liked Centro's modification where he went 45:40 for an 8:55 3200m.
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It's continuous, no breaks
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Another Duck wrote:
Yeah I did them as well... We always did the session sometime around february or march as a sort of test for the upcoming outdoor season. The best one I ever had was 10 laps. We had two other team mates go 12 laps and another one go 10 with myself.
By the way, it should be 40/30's, not 30/40's. Dellinger always had us start with a 40 second 200, which was always hard to hold back on. You can kill the whole session with a 35 second 200 to start when you have to kick into 30 seconds.
Also, Pre did 18 and Alberto did 16. Dellinger may have said Pre did 26 or 27 but don't believe everything you hear - especially if you heard it at the Oregon Track Camp back in the day.
He did do it in his 27:43 10,000m in which he ran 30s with the wind and 37s against the wind in the rain.
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Tinman wrote:
malmo wrote:
30-30s were on Monday.
30-40s were rare, not a frequent Dellinger staple as many on this thread are claiming.
--------------------------------------------------------
Malmo is absolutely right, but of course he was in Eugene, OR when Dellinger's men were doing these workouts, so he knows first-hand.
Dellinger's printed training schedules included 30 second 220s with 30 second rests on Monday after a main run. This was a standard workout which was used often.
The 40-30 continuous simulation drill was used sparingly as a test of fitness at the end of the winter, typically, before outdoor track season. Dellinger prescribed several other simulation workouts, too.
About the the number of laps that Pre ran in 40-30 fashion, I do not think it was 26 laps, as suggested. I've heard from older Eugene natives that Pre ran 18 laps and Salazar ran 16 laps. I think Matt Centrowitz did several laps too, but the amt I am not sure about. It would be good to have Matt contribute to this thread. Someone must know him and can ask him what went on at the U of O in it's heyday - the early to mid 1970s.
As I understand it, the Oregon simulation drills were intended to exploit strengths and reveal weaknesses of fitness and toughness. One learned to deal with changes of pace during a sustained run. This concept simulated the racing strategy employed by Vladimir Kuts of Russia who destroyed Gordon Pirie of England with surges in the 1956 Olymic Games 10,000m run.
Tinman
I would have expected Chapa to do better than Centro and possibly as well as Salazar. Those 30s would have taken a lot more out of Salazar than Chapa. Chapa’s 3000m AR was 7.5 X 30.5, so 40 second recoveries would have stretched it out a ways.
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I have always been fascinated by this workout. The article linked below has some good information about how to incorporate it for anyone interested. I think the beauty of the classic is that it is very simple, 30 on 40 off for nice even numbers and paces. But the reality is that for someone like Pre this is just alternating between around mile pace and then recovering with a float pace above marathon pace. The 10 second difference between paces just happens to workout.
The article recommends the workout be done with the fast 200s at slightly slower than mile pace (again, like Pre with his 3:56 PB) and the recovery at ~33.3% slower. Again, this loses some of the neatness but I think it makes the workout much more adaptable than just saying "my 4:30 high school miler should do this workout in 33/43 because that is mile pace and mile pace + 10 seconds, just like Pre did." I'm sure the athlete would do this but a 4:30 miler is not cruising at 5:44 pace the same way Pre is cruising at 5:20 pace. Again, anyone who has done this knows that the key is the slower 200! Pre, Salazar, and Centro Sr. can obviously run 30s pretty comfortably but 5:20 pace isn't a usual recovery shuffle back to the line. I can't speak to how often the Oregon guys actually did it but I do see the 30-30 more often quoted when looking up this kind of training.
Still, I think this can be a fun workout to break out given the history of it. One way to make it more manageable also is to break it into sets. 1200s or 1600s I think work but the key for the coach (or the self coached athlete) is to cut it when the fast 200s become a real stretch or the pace starts dropping. It's a fun, continuous exercise in gear changes but it shouldn't be some attempt to "match Pre's record" by eking out every lap possible. While Pre's record (or maybe it is Galen's record now as I remember reading he had done more) is a fun piece of running folklore, this is still just a workout.
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