OK, I wanna know the facts, WHO IS THE GREATEST HIGH SCHOOL TEAM EVER?

I don't know much about them, times???

Mead boys of '93 were pretty badass. As an alum, I'll throw Bernards '82 in the mix...

Grote

State College Little Lion 1967 nuff said! Thread closed discussion done.

VM wrote:

Menomonie Falls North - Wisconsin State Champs - 1980

Top 3 runners:

Tim Hacker

Dave Hacker

Joe Stinzi

Three more solid guys.

None of the teams listed so far were better. Period. Look at the names on the NCAA DI National Championship team from 1982.

Let me clarify:

Tim Hacker would probably be on a short list of top all-time first men for any HS team. He could be top-three in the nation on an average day in nearly any year in the last 40.

I thought Dave Hacker was the Hacker brother that ran 4:20 as a senior, but I should have checked myself as I remember that this brother graduated around 1986 or so. My apologies on that one. Was Dave a year older than Tim? I believe Tim ran at Wisco in the Fall of '81 and was fourth in XC in Fall of '82. I went to XC Nationals at Dretzka Park in '85 and also had two friends on the team that year and I never remember a "DAve Hacker" during that era. Surprised he didn't do great in college like Jenkins and his brother. I think that based on the little that you have shown me he could be considered one of the best 2nd men in HS ever.

Stintzi was a good runner too. He probably could be one of the best third men ever when comparing teams from different eras. I actually know Jim and know Joe only a little bit.

Now, after that, they can't be considered the best team ever. Unless their 4th and 5th are also sub-4:25/9:25 guys you can't say that this is the best team ever on paper. You even said that they didn't win their State Meet. When you have three guys who place that high and are that good, you still win your State Meet by a lot in a state like Wisconsin. That is what your 6th and 7th men are for and also count for something when you are considering who the best ever are.

Also, I don't know why you think they ran on cinder and asphalt tracks. Maybe you were their teammate and you guys ran on slow tracks? I am from MI and graduated in '85 and we only had one track in 16 races that was cinder.

Is Hacker's PR not from the IPI meet? The same area that York competes in? I don't see a difference in late '70's/early '80's tracks and late 90's ones. Certainly more schools had better tracks by 2000, but it isn't like there weren't any back in your day.

Our high school actually had an asphalt track in the 80's that was super-fast and then replaced it with a bad attempt at Mondo, that was really like a bunch of shredded rubber peices sprayed on the track base. It was significantly slower.

It's all about the 5th man here boys! Which of these great teams are the best at number 5. I hear stories about Alan Scarsu's and John Zishkas's teams from the 70's that had 9:40 2 milers at number 5. Even Hammond Indiana 1976 didn't win their state meet( some of you know what I'm talking about).

So far it looks like that 93 Mead team is in the lead in this argument.

I ran for a nearby team. I think we ran on slightly more cinder tracks than "hard" ones. I don't know for certain which ones MNF ran on then, but I'm assuming it was the same ratio - could be wrong though.

The thing about Tim Hacker is that you really can't judge the guy by times - he was a racer, and rarely lost. He would just sit there on the lead guys shoulder, and find a way to win. It never seemed like he was going for times - time trialing.

You were probably thinking about Bill Hacker, graduated HS in 85 I think. Dave was a senior in 1980 - Tim, Scott Jenkins and John Easker all graduated in 81. Scott went 8:58 indoor his senior year, and it might have been on a 176 track (not sure though).

I'm not sure if 4 and 5 could go 4:25. I beat their 4 and 5, but could go well under 4:25 at that time, so I suspect they would be close to that.

I would be great to see how this team would stack up against York and Meade - they had better 4 and 5 guys for sure, but I have my money on TH, DH, and JS for as the top three.

For those of you posting things like "thread closed" on some of these older teams, cough up the data. I really want to see. I know there were some sick fast teams in the early 70's, probably late 60's as well.

Kingwood High in TX had the 2 Hausers plus another kid all make National Footlocker XC finals in one year. That's pretty impressive.

not the best whole team ever probably but certainly worth mentioning.

VM wrote:

Dave Hacker an "average" runner his senior year? I have a pic sitting in front of me of the results board from the 1980 WI State xc meet

1. Tim Hacker - 14:53.6

2. Chris Pescke - 15.53.8

3. Joe Stinzi - 14:59.7

4. Dave Hacker - 15:04.6

5. Scott Jenkins - 15:06.2

I wish I was that average (damn cold day, tough Yahara Hills course)

MFN actually didn't win that day (2nd) - 5th man tanked, but that definitely was not indicative of what they did that season.

These results must have been from 1979? It's clearer to me now. Tim and Joe must have been juniors in that race, and Dave must have been a senior.

Where did Dave run in college if at all? And what became of this Pescke? He must have been pretty good.

I do realize that you cannot compare Hacker based on times. I saw him run five times in the Fall of '85 when he won Nationals and I think he barely beat J.P. Ndayisenga at the "Pre-Nats" of that time. It was a big Invitational NOT on the National course.

I believe he won that race, BIG-10's, Districts and NCAA's and maybe one other. I actually have an old Harrier that shows that he won Conf. by :24 over Stinz and District over Hanson by :23 and then won NCAA by :12 over Ondieki and Hanson by :30.

Seems like he was so strong that year that he didn't just win by 10ths.

I am surprised that he didn't win more things over the next 10 years or run faster at 5k/10k. His record in XC and 3200 in HS seems to indicate ability right up there with Kennedy and Goucher.

I know he won US Nationals in the '97 after about 16 tries at it.

HS XC - Mead. Best team ever. '93.

Best HS Basketball Team St. Anthony Jersey City 1989-90 I watched them obliterate a good CBA team. Terry Dehere didnt even start. Danny Hurley didnt even get to play. Sick team. They had no home court either. Unreal.

Best Band with a one armed drummer - Def Leppard

Best One armed Drummer - guy from def leppard

Best Drummer Performance in a song about Sugar being poured on someone by a one armed drummer - again, I know it's unreal, the guy from Def Lappard

Mead was awesome. They were the clear #1 in a year where #2 was hauser, hauser, lewis something and tyson hendrickson of kingswood were rolling.

Bernards....(uncontrollable snickers)

Yes, 1979-80 school year. I have no idea what happened to Pescke and I'm not sure where Dave went. My dad took about 100 pics of the 3 MFN guys, Jenkins and Pescke at those two state meets, and Tim was in second place in every single one of them (except coming across the line)! Just sitting off the right shoulder. He did the same thing to Jenkins in 1980. Must have had unbelievable confidence in his kick. I think he "only" ran a 4:10 in HS, but you can bet it was .2 seconds faster than someone else in the race. I think he eventually went 3:35 in the 1500.

At the 1979 race, it was my first state meet, and we were in a HUGE bunch at the end of the first 400 meters. I remember these 2 guys talking to each other right in front of me, saying something like "where's the fire?". I couldn't believe it! State meet, and these two clowns are screwing around. I couldn't see who it was at first, but then someone made a move, and these two "clowns" literally blow the field to pieces over the next 400 meters. Yep, they had MNF jerseys on. I swear they would have run 18:35 that day if it would have won the race. They were not going to make a move until someone else did.

Great team at any rate. Easker was Class B, and basically ran the same times as the Class A guys, but did it all alone - no one within 300 meters in most races.

Yes, I know, glory days. I'm pathetic.

"Mead was awesome. They were the clear #1 in a year where #2 was hauser, hauser, lewis something and tyson hendrickson of kingswood were rolling."

Yeah I had a little conversation with the Hausers (& Don Sage from York) down on the farm. I think they all saw the light on Mead...haha. It was funny to have members from all three of those teams on the same track together.

One thing nobody has mentioned on Matt Davis before his senior year injury.

Micah and I came through mile one in 4:33 and mile two in 9:30, so where was Matt? Going though mile one in 4:19 and mile two in 9:06. He was soooo far ahead that day, out of control. We watched a video later and he didn't look like he struggled at all.

My vote if he stayed healthy after state, only one man would've had a prayer of stopping him at Footlocker - Goucher.

Actually Eric Henry went to rival Mcullough High School which is now The Woodlands High School. They used to have the DMR national record until South Lakes broke it with Richard Smith and Alan Webb. While their 4x1600 meter record is a national record it is surpassed by South Eugene's 4xmile record by a few seconds. Kingwood did have some great teams back in the nineties where they won something like 7 state meets in cross in the 10 years of the 1990's.

Newton MA's HS's fifth runner ran 9:41 2mile last year and they didn't even get consideration for a ticket to NTN let alone all time lists. Ah yes and they had Barnicle leading them.

Mead '93 had a tight bunch of runners, at least, they ran close on the track. They also ran pretty close in college, but the subject is cross country. I know that York's 5th runner at the state meet finished in just under 15:00 minutes for 3 miles- I believe it was Janulis. I think York would be the better team; I just think their 1st - 3rd guy were better. Sage got 2nd at Footlocker Finals to Ritzenhein, but I don't remember how Cioni placed. Maybe Adam Palulmbo ran in it also, I don't recall, but someone should deffinately look up their stats. I don't think track stats should be used to justify who had the better cross country team. That doesn't make any sense to me. Wait, here are the Illinois State Cross Country men's results for AA class: York scored 24 points!

1 1 Donald Sage Sr Elmhurst (York) 14:03

2 Tim Keller Sr West Chicago (H.S.) 14:24

3 Dan Trainor Sr Freeport (H.S.) 14:32

4 2 Brendan Gaffney Sr LaGrange (Lyons) 14:33

5 3 Adam Palumbo Sr Elmhurst (York) 14:34

6 4 Peter Cioni Sr Elmhurst (York) 14:36

7 5 Micah Vandenend So Glen Ellyn (Glenbard South) 14:37

8 6 Adam Roche Jr Elmhurst (York) 14:38

9 7 Brian Rae Jr Naperville (North) 14:41

10 8 Dan Haut Jr Lockport (Twp.) 14:42

11 9 Todd Quednau Sr Downers Grove (North) 14:45

12 10 Peter Stasiulis Jr Elmhurst (York) 14:46

13 11 William Artope Jr Evanston (Twp.) 14:48

14 Dan Glaz Jr Palos Hills (Stagg) 14:49

15 12 Zac Sartori Jr Lockport (Twp.) 14:51

16 13 Justin Amason Sr Centralia 14:52

17 Justin Motkowicz Sr Crete (C.-Monee) 14:53

18 14 Pat Bradley Sr Downers Grove (North) 14:55

19 15 Matt Legel Jr Crystal Lake (Central) 14:56

20 Tim Seiwert Sr Park Ridge (Maine South) 14:57

21 16 Ryan Teising Sr Naperville (Central) 14:57

22 Paul Kulisek Jr Woodstock (H.S.) 14:58

23 Ed Umansky Sr Park Ridge (Maine East) 14:59

24 17 John Janulis Sr Elmhurst (York) 14:59

Okay, so York's runners were:

1. Don Sage(1), 14:03

2. Adam Palumbo(5), 14:34

3. Peter Cioni(6), 14:36

4. Adam Roche(8), 14:38

5. Peter Stasiulis(12), 14:46

6. John Janulis(24), 14:59

7. Jay McGrane(50), 15:39

This is on a course where Craig Virgin holds the record at 13:50 and Jorge Torres won in '98 I think with a time of 14:00, just so everyone has a way to measure up everyone else. York's 2nd - 4th runners were pretty tight, so I think it would be hard for a Mead team to break them up. However, I'm assuming that when the Mead '93 team ran state, it was probably fairly cold, maybe wet and muddy?

Anyway, I could only find the Footlocker finals results from '99, but I'll look around to see if I can find any other good results for the '99 York team, which I think could be better than the '93 Mead team, from what I've heard.

Okay, so aparently at the 1999 Footlocker Midwest Regionals, Sage got 3rd to Ritzenhein and Tegenkamp in 15:05, and the only other York runner that I found on the list was Peter Cioni, who ran a dismal 16:05 for a middle-of-the-pack place. I guess Newton really peaked them for the State meet.

I love having this much time on my hands...

Okay, so if we compare how each team placed at their respective state meet, which to most would seem kind of absurd(different courses, climate, etc.), but sense this seems like the best way to compare each team directly, Mead '93 vs. York '99 would score like this(assuming each course was also the exact same distance - 3.0 miles):

1. Don Sage, York (14:03)

2. Matt Davis, Mead (14:09)

3. Adam Palumbo, York (14:34)

4. Peter Cioni, York (14:36)

5. Adam Roche, York (14:38)

6. Micah Davis, Mead (14:46)

7. Peter Stasiulis, York (14:46)

8. Rob Aubrey, Mead (14:48)

9. John Janulis, York (14:59)

10. Greg James, Mead (15:13)

11. Jay McGrane, York (15:39)

12. Skiy DeTray, Mead (15:41)

So if this were an at all plausible reliable way of comparing the teams together, York would have won 20 - 38, and that's giving 6th place to Micah Davis instead of Peter Stasiulis(because they both ran 14:46 on their respective state course), just for the hell of it. Has anyone been to both courses, and could he/she give any comment on which looks harder?

What about the York team from this year?

York 2005:

Won state meet, scoring 49 points to second place Palatine (132).

1. Eric Dettman(5), 14:26

2. Matt Dettman(7), 14:29

3. Mike Fry(15), 14:40

4. Tom Achtein(17), 14:42

5. David Montgomery(25), 14:54

6. Nick Kuczwara(26), 14:56

7. Tim Jung(110), 15:39

The Dettman Duo has carried York to a state cross country championship for the past 4 years, plus a Nike Team Nationals win last year. Compared to the York '99 team,

1. Don Sage, 99 (14:03)

2. Eric Dettman, 05 (14:26)

3. Matt Dettman, 05 (14:29)

4. Adam Palumbo, 99 (14:34)

5. Peter Cioni, 99 (14:36)

6. Adam Roche, 99 (14:38)

7. Mike Fry, 05 (14:40)

8. Tom Achtein, 05 (14:42)

9. Peter Stasiulis, 99 (14:46)

10. David Montgomery, 05 (14:54)

11. Nick Kuczwara, 05 (14:56)

12. John Janulis, 99 (14:59)

13. Tim Jung, 05 (15:39)

14. Jay McGrane, 99 (15:39)

York '99: 1 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 9 - (12) - (14) : 25

York '05: 2 - 3 - 7 - 8 - 10 - (11) - (13): 30

Pretty close.

Washington is tougher - well f***ing done. i've never seen that much supporting evidence for anything in life. i'm convinced.

"So if this were an at all plausible reliable way of comparing the teams together, York would have won 20 - 38, and that's giving 6th place to Micah Davis instead of Peter Stasiulis(because they both ran 14:46 on their respective state course), just for the hell of it. Has anyone been to both courses, and could he/she give any comment on which looks harder?"

You'd have to give Micah Davis the edge, cause he was 10TH AT FOOTLOCKER NATIONALS!!!

Also, the York state course has been reported short, 2.97 miles or something?

Also, I wouldn't compare one meet results in two totally different locations at different times and conditions. I'd consider a bit more than that.