Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 2/13/22

I'm a big fan of going out conservative and checking in at key points. Ran 25:16 off a negative split last year.

I would get out in 5:36 for the first mile and see how that feels over two miles and start picking up the pace from there.

Seeing some inspirational stuff in this thread over the past few weeks.

I'm still around, just lurking in the shadows. Trying to turn in a steady dose of mileage leading up to a few 10k races in the spring: Azalea Trail Run in Mobile, Alabama; Crescent City Classic in New Orleans).

Ended up running the Houston Marathon last month and went 2:33:19 for a PR of 3:34.

Midweek update for me:

Ran 8x1 minute on/1 minute off yesterday around the block by the brewery I host a run club at.

3 mile warmup @ 7:01 average
8x1 min
Ons: 4:36, 4:42, 4:36, 4:51, 4:32, 4:39, 4:35, 4:37
Offs: 6:30, 6:18, 6:11, 6:11, 6:31, 6:19, 6:27, 6:11
5K cooldown @ 6:51 avg

Felt great even with the turning and wind. Feel great out here.

My favorite training days are the recovery days. Ha! Well, I do get satisfaction from having completed a good workout. And after three days off, I get a bit antsy.

I've never consistently trained seven days a week, but have run 4 miles, six days a week, and completely stagnate. Maintenance, but no improvement. Better results with 8-4-12 or 8-16 or 8-8-10, etc.

Re: OR's training, were you following when he took a lot of flack from other posters? For a while he tried more conventional training, but didn't experience any improvement.

I'd like to see him take more easy/recovery days, but with the daily progressions, he's consistently spending time at MP, LT, and CV; even VO2 max occasionally.

RunnerSam: What will the competition be like? Others at 5:30 pace to run with or chase down could make a difference in how you pace out the race. When you've had "break-through" races in the past, did you typically run hard fom the start?

For me, the best races, 5K to 15K were dependant on the competition. Usually even-paced, but I was able to dig deep to maintain pace late in the races by either chasing down runners ahead of me, or holding off those behind (rather than being overly aware of splits).

RunnerSam: "best races" above refers to "fastest times." Of course, a great race isn't necessarily the fastest, but often is!

RS. In your shoes I would follow Sub6 advice and get out in mid 5:30s, hold through 2 miles and then reevaluate.

Outstanding result, congrats! You're gonna crush those upcoming 10K's. Enjoy a great racing season.

Tyler - Big congrats to you on the race. Now on to sub-2:30, my friend...

Q1 - The competition will be fierce! There were 33 people under 28 min last time it was ran in 2020 (11 between 27 and 28) and I expect it to be the similar. Seven guys from my club should finish ahead of me, three of which I've been working out with but they are a little quicker than me historically (low/mid 16 5k), I'm just not sure where I'm at since I think I'm ready for a PR.

Q2 - I don't necessarily expect a breakthrough race. I had an even split in my 5k PR and a slight negative split in my 8k PR. That 8k PR I ran through 5k in a 45s PR and finished the 8k in a 1:45 PR. My HM was pretty even though splits showed positive split (gravel later half). One of my 500yd freestyle PRs was because my coach told me to go out super hard and see what happens(after a number of lackluster races), almost PRd my 200yd and sizable positive split but still had a big PR.

hhw/beersandmiles - Probably a reasonable thing to do, I am thinking try for 5:30-5:35 (grade adjusted) first mile and see where I am at. It is a downhill first mile which will make it hard to gauge but I can aim to be ~10s behind the above mentioned training partners. It's just so tempting to try to be pulled along.

RunnerSam: All considered (thank you for the detailed info), I agree that starting relatively conservatively (5:35 "effort") is best. Loop course? Where do you gain back that elevation loss from the first mile?

All my PRs were run even-paced, which for me means "serious effort" at the start, and freakin' painful the final third of the race. The latter is only achievable in competition.

Is the course certified? When I'm going for PRs, I only race on certified courses, and on race day, double-check the start and finish locations with the certification map in hand.

It is a figure 8 course, first two miles are net down and the next three are net up, little rollers throughout. Same start-finish so ~280' of down and ~280' of up.

It is part of the MidAtlantic USATF Grand Prix event, it is certified. Looks like the consensus is to start out in control and push in, hopefully catch a friend or two.

Allen, does this include the marathon?

About OR's training, isn't it pretty typical in certain cultures? I think I've seen multiple references to the "Kenyan Progression Runs" on their typical non-workout days. I could be wrong.

I was recalling PRs for 5K through 15K. But, yeah, my marathon PR was very even splits, not counting first-mile traffic delays (followed by a 5:20 mile to get back on target, stupid me). I lost another 30 seconds during the final three miles, and finished in 2:40:30. Gave it my all, though, and had to be carried from the finish line to the recovery area. Not much memory of that!

My most recent marathon was the only one where I was actually racing for place (age group). But during final miles there were no geriatrics within sight, ahead of behind, so not a lot of motivation to push deep into pain zone. I finished 2nd M55-59.

Re: Kenyans. I believe you're correct. But I'm no expert.

Typo. Should read "no geriatrics within sight, ahead of behind ..."

It would be a disservice both to OR’s talent and dedication in 2019 to say that he didn’t experience any improvement from more conventional training.

He was in the shape of his life that year, simply derailed by a very untimely cold shortly before Boston.

file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/67/07/11AA5072-138F-4FCA-9C13-A4A86CD33363/Outsiderunner%202019%20Boston%20Build.pdf

Hopefully the formatting for this comes through okay. OR’s training that cycle was really something to behold…

12 Weeks Leading Up to Boston 2019

1/21-1/27
M: 10.25 at 7:04 overall...just a great run...windchill was -1F...could not believe how good I felt toward the end
T: 10.25 at 7:14 overall...still cold
W: 12.13 at 6:30 overall...2/8/2 MP workout...block of 8 straight at MP...6:17, 6:15, 6:10, 6:06, 6:03, 6:01, 6:00, 5:53...felt very good
T: 10.13 at 7:17 pace...soaking rain and some wind
F: 10.25 at 7:14 overall...cold and breezy
Sat.: 2.25 at 8:04 overall for the warm-up...then 5k race in 17:32...cold...25F and cloudy at the gun Sun.: 18.5 at 7:05 overall...hilliest route...did not want to go under 7:00, but it came without trying in the last several miles...6:58, 6:55, 6:58, 6:47, 6:49, 6:39, 6:46, 3:20...the run pretty much felt like nothing...pure joy
76 miles

1/28-2/3
M: 10.25 at 7:14 overall...cold but sunny
T: 11.25 at 6:32 overall...fartlek workout...felt great...Did 22 x 1:00/1:00 at mostly 5k pace
W: 10.13 at 7:17 overall...c-cold...tough running
T: 11.25 at 6:55 pace...stinkin’ cold...hilly...picked up speed naturally...finished 6:48, 6:43, 6:44, 6:48, 6:37, 6:41, 6:05,1:31...so, like a mini-flyer
F: 10.5 at 6:52 overall...still cold...had good pep toward the end...6:51, 6:45, 6:39, 6:32, 6:09, 2:54 to finish
Sat.: 10.25 at 7:26 overall...coach put in the order for easy pace, and I did my best to hold back Sun.: 18.5 at 6:42 overall...quality LR workout...10/8.5...hilly...felt great...8.5 at MP, finishing 6:05, 6:09, 6:03, 5:59, 6:01, 5:58, 5:58, 5:55, 2:56...felt REALLY good
82 miles

2/4-2/10
M: 12.13 at 7:27 overall...nice, easy running
T: 12.13 at 7:25 overall...more of the same
W: 11.51 total miles...10 x half mile workout (90-second jog recoveries)...done on the roads...some wind...averaged 2:45.8 for the 10 reps...felt good, though intervals still spook me some
T: 11.13 at 7:28 overall
F: 10.5 at 7:26 overall..felt really good
Sat.: 10.53 miles total...2.30 warm-up (including strides)...5k race in 17:42 on a cold, windy morning and a hilly course...5.13 at 7:14 overall in the cool down
Sun: 20.25 at 7:20 overall...felt like nothing...felt great the whole way...7:54 --> 7:00
88 miles

2/11-2/17
M: 10.5 at 7:26 overall...cold rain
T: 12.13 at 7:26 overall...more cold rain
W: 11.68 at 6:35 overall...6 x 1 mile workout on the roads...2:00 jog rests...went 5:45, 5:38, 5:35, 5:37 5:40, 5:36 for the six reps., averaging 5:38.5...target was 5:40-5:48. Felt great and in control throughout.
T: 10.48 at 7:26 overall..felt like nothing
F: 14.25 at 7:14 overall...hilly...easy peasy and coach gave me the option of going under 7:00 for the last three...6:55, 6:48, 6:43
Sat.: 10.13 at 7:27 overall
Sun.: 20.25 at 6:46 overall...alternations workout on the roads...cold and breezy...5/10/5 structure...middle 10 consisting of half-mile alternations...avergaed 5:57.6/6:25.8 for the alternations...targets were 5:55-6:00 and 6:30-6:35...it worked me, but I felt very good throughout
89 miles

2/18-2/24
M: 8.25 at 7:27 overall
T: 13.68 at 6:31 overall...4 x 2 mile workout...5:53.6, 5:45.8, 5:44.6, 5:43.3..target was 5:47-5:53...felt great
W: 11.25 at 7:26 overall...in freezing rain...nasty, sloppy conditions
T: 12.25 at 7:28 overall..some snow and ice still around
F: scheduled day off
Sat.: 11.49 miles total...2.26 at 7:48 overall warm-up...5k race in 17:19 (PR)...6.13 at 7:18 overall for the cool-down
Sun.: 11.13 at 7:27 overall
68 miles

2/25-3/3
M: 12.5 at 7:18 overall...felt like nothing
T: 17.13 at 6:30 overall...4/3/2/1 workout...6:10/6:05/6:00/5:55 targets with onemile jog rests...splits were...6:05, 6:09, 6:00, 6:02...5:58, 6:01, 5:55...5:55, 5:51...5:43...felt great
W: 10.13 at 7:25
T: 14.72 at 6:31 overall...3 x 3 mile workout...5:54-6:00 target...averaged 5:55.1...felt good
F: 8.5 at 7:25 overall
Sat.: 12.13 at 7:19 overall...felt like nothing
Sun.: 20.13 at 6:53 overall...14 easy and then last 6 at MP (6:05-6:10)...6:11, 6:06, 6:00, 6:05, 6:05, 5:57...in the hills and in the snow (snow was not sticking)...felt good, but I felt those miles in my legs toward the end
95 miles

3/4-3/10
M: 8.5 at 7:23 overall...cold and breezy
T: 12.13 at 7:22 overall...cold
W: 13.32 ay 6:35 overall...2 x 4 mile workout...very cold and windy...4:30 jog rest...5:59-6:04 target...6:05.4, 6:02.6, 5:53.4, 5:55.6...and then 5:58.4, 6:01.9, 5:59.1, 5:48.6...(5:58.1 overall avg. for both sets)...felt great
T: 10.13 at 7:23 overall...cold and cloudy...felt like nothing
F: 10.13 at 7:23 overall...snow flurries...felt like nothing
Sat: Special Block: AM: 12.13 at 6:23 overall...in the hills...6:59, 6:46, 6:44, 6:43, 6:39, 6:38, 6:04, 6:05, 6:04, 6:03, 6:01, 5:56...felt very good...PM...12.57 at 6:29 overall...in the neighborhood...7:01, 6:50, 6:51, 6:48, 6:48, 6:49...then 5 x 1 mile with :90 jogs (6:00-6:05 target)...5:56.0, 5:56.8, 5:54.8, 5:53.5, 5:46.4...felt so good I had to hold back some
Sun.: 6.13 at 7:34 overall
85 miles

3/11-3/17
M: 10.13 at 7:27 overall...felt good
T: 13.13 at 7:19 overall...hilly...windy...felt very good
W: 12.13 at 7:24 overall
T: 11.13 at 6:30 overall...2/6/3 workout...6 at 5:50-5:55 target...5:58.6, 6:02.5, 5;53.9, 5:50.7, 5:46.3, 5:40,.3...5:52.1 avg for tempo block
F: 10.13 at 7:32 overall
Sat: 10.13 at 7:27 overall
Sun.: 20.25 at 6:36 overall...20 with 18 "steady" workout...18 at 6:38 or faster...target was 6:25-6:35...last 8+ were 6:30, 6:26, 6:28, 6:24, 6:30, 6:28, 6:27, 6:25, 1:38...hilliest route
87 miles

3/18-3/24
M: 8.13 at 7:24 overall...felt very easy
T: 12.13 at 7:22 overall...very nice feeling
W: 12.13 at 6:57 overall...1:00/1:00 farlek workout
T: 10.13 at 7:22 overall...in a cold rain...run felt great otherwise
F: 17.13 at 6:25 overall...marathon "test" workout...3/12/2 with 12 at MP (6:05-6;10)...done in the neighborhood...windy...7:38, 7:30, 7:20...and then 6:07, 6:05, 6:09, 6:06, 6:02, 6:05, 6:05, 6:05, 6:04, 6:02, 6:02, 6:03...then 6:56, 6:47...could not slow down in the cool down...felt great...6:04.6 avg for the MP block
Sat.: 8:25 at 7:23 overall
Sun: 12.25 at 7:05 overall...in the hills...felt VERY good...7:50 -> 6:38
80 miles

3/25-3/31
M: 10.13 at 7:19 overall...felt god
T: 11.13 at 6:28 overall...2/7/2 prog. workout...6:09, 6:08, 6:01, 5:55, 5:52, 5:50, 5:45 for the prog. block...tough running...winded me some (it was a windy day, too)
W: 8.25 at 7:27 overall
T: 10.13 at 7:22 overall, plus 5 strides...strides were fun
F: 17.14 at 6:39 overall...LR workout...start at 7:00 and hold for 12, and then 5 down to 6:05...in the hills...7:02 -> 6:46 (felt like nothing), and then 6:31, 6:19, 6:09, 6:06, 5:55...felt great
Sat.: 8.13 at 7:19 overall...felt very good
Sun.: 10.5 at 7:12 overall...in the hills...quite windy...did not particularly like this run
75 miles

4/1-4/7
M: 10.13(?) at easy?
T: 10.13 at 6:34 overall...5 mile tempo 6:03, 6:01, 5:54, 5:53, 5:54. Very windy.
W: 8.5 at 7:21 overall
Th: 8.5 at 7:21 overall
F: 14.89 at 6:27 overall...That one put a smile on my face, and finally made made say to myself: I can do it. 45/46 degrees and rain...run done in the neighborhood loop. Some easterly wind, but not terrible. Went 7:41, 7:26 and then...6:05.2, 6:06.6, 6:03.3, 6:04.7, 6:05.4...5:00 jog rest...6:03.2, 6:01.7, 6:00.1, 6:00.9, 5:53.9. Felt okay in first 5, but felt really good in the second 5. Had a stranglehold on the pace, and the effort level felt nice. That 5:53.9 last mile did not feel that fast. It came nicely.
Sat: Sick
Sun: Sick
52 miles

4/8 - 4/14
M: 6.5 at 7:24 overall. Felt sluggish and “off” but made it through it decently. T: 8.5 at 7:23 overall.
W: Rest
Th: 3 x 1 workout. 6:03.8, 6:02.6, 5:55.5.

Stone: Thank you for the reminder! My apologies. I should have refreshed my memory before typing. I recalled being super-excited to see how he would respond to that training, and really looking forward to his race results, especially as he was entering a new age group. 

Unfortunately, my faulty memory brought back only a vague recollection of disappointment and his return to his favored training routines.

Aargh. I completely forgot about the health issues, and the great fitness results he was experiencing prior to that (yes, at 50, the best shape of his life). It's awesome to see that entire program laid out. Impressive, indeed!

Incredible respect for you, Smoove, and other experienced coaches who generously share their knowledge here ... going back to John Kellogg, Jack Daniels, etc, 20 years ago when I first linked to this site (fom the local track club's web page).

OR: Apologies to you too, my friend. That was an incredible training block that I had kinda forgot about (going through my own troubles at the time). Those workouts and paces were crazy! Hard work, and well done.

Then some bad luck going into Boston, then Covid and race cancellations ... that's the disappointment that lingers in my memory.

Gotta say, though, I'm excited about your "certain race in April ..." Things are getting back to normal, and the guys and gals on the RRTT are on fire! 

Stone/Allen - No doubt, I was in the shape of my life in 2019. I think back on it fondly. Stone was (and is) a superb coach. I love you, man...both you and Allen.

To be completely honest, I have thought about doing another block of "conventional" training, but if I did so, I would want it to be only with Coach Stone.

And since we are discussing OR things, I will give full disclosure and say that the race I have been eyeing is Salisbury, on 4/2/22. A very tight window of training for that race (6+ weeks left), but I suppose dreams can come true sometimes. I have set my "decide date" as 2/27/22 (before the price goes up). Since hotel rooms can be hard to snag, I already got a nice reservation a few weeks ago...

Almost forgot...mid-week update #2 (since it seems to apply)...took yesterday off and did 12.25 at 7;08 overall this morning in the hills and in some challengining winds. That run felt better than the 15-miler and I was able to split 6:53, 6:57, 6:58, 6:51, 6;49, 1:39.4 in the last 5.25. So, I am still in one piece, with something of an ache in my left glute, but otherwise okay..