Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 1/9/22

Male, 28, 6’4”, 148 lbs

PRs: 4:54 Mile, 16:56 5k

Goals - Base Build, lower 200m time, 5k PR this spring

Mn - 9 @ 7:55s

Tu - 6400T 4x200 + WU/WD = 10

Wd - 11 @ 8:00s

Th - 7 @ 8:15s

Fr - 8 @ 8:00s

Sa - 10 @ 7:45s

Su - 7 @ 8:05s

Total - 62

Tu - 23:15 or 5:49/1600, feeling pretty comfortable at this pace. Would like to continue tempos around this pace.

Th - Started a 1600 tempo prior to speed work but bailed 800 in, the legs were not ready & cold

General - Weather induced lazy week, would like put on more miles in coming weeks

RRR - Yes a group of four friends are heading down to Houston, all are doing the marathon with various goal times (2:30 2:37 2:45 ?). Another two signed up for the half but are out due to injury and covid. Best of luck down there!

Allen1959 wrote:

I'm also fascinated by different approaches to training. I can't imagine the discipline it takes to run consistent 70-, 80-, 100-mile weeks.

RRR: Wow, how did I miss that 19-mile followup to a 22-miler?! Strength AND endurance. Enjoy your race this weekend.

Also wishing good luck to RRR. And Allen echo you on the folks here who consistently put in 70+ mile weeks. Many who probably have on their plates as far as work or children than me. Pretty inspiring and amazing consistency.

One thing I'm interested is the slower-paced long run and the philosophy behind it. Kinda intrigued by the pros and cons of a slow LR, a fast one. Myself I naturally gravitate towards fast just to "get it over with." Do wonder if there might be some benefits to better simulating time on feet rather than near MP effort as my long ones typically do now.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:One thing I'm interested is the slower-paced long run and the philosophy behind it.

My philosophy is that the only goal of a long run is to run long. It would be mentally too stressful (for me) to anticipate 20 miles of hard effort. Much easier to get out the door if I'm thinking, "Just easy and relaxed."

In the old days we figured long runs, no matter the pace, helped "teach" the body to switch to fat-burning. Dunno if that's valid, but that's also why I got in the habit of not fueling -- supposedly hastening the fat-burning. Debunked long ago?

Physiologically, Jack Daniels claims that training at MP offers no benefit over easy pace. He prescribes MP training solely for psychological reasons. Dunno if that's valid either, but I've never targeted MP in training.

Allen1959 wrote:

Physiologically, Jack Daniels claims that training at MP offers no benefit over easy pace. He prescribes MP training solely for psychological reasons. Dunno if that's valid either, but I've never targeted MP in training.

Similarly I've never targeted it either. The only time I really touch on it at all is actually within a long run, where the last 3-4 miles I just pick it up to get home and that usually means 6:35-7 min pace. Most of the run is a speedier range than an easy run (MP +10-25 ~ 7:00-7:25), but not a pace that intimidates me getting out the door or feels hard. The fat burning, time on feet stuff is interesting because my legs have been cooked in both marathons despite feeling great aerobically.

Fine line between discipline and compulsion for some people. When it comes to mileage in the past (before the long stretch of injuries and Covid and etc) I did quite a few miles and for me it took discipline NOT to run..

Thoughts and Allen,

The one thing that I never understood about the long slow run is "how slow is too slow". There has to be a point where it's not as good as running "comfortably fast". Otherwise, walking would be just as effective as preparing the body for a marathon, right? I know this is a gross oversimplification.

I swear that material on here that I've read by some of Lydiard's guys and John Kellogg encouraged long runs to be high aerobic events but not too hard. If I'm wrong about that I hope someone jumps in and corrects me as I don't want to spread misinformation.

BHViking wrote:"how slow is too slow"

Good question, and I've no idea what the answer is. I will say that if I was capable of doing my long runs at MP, I think I would. If only to save time, like ThoughtLeader!

Actually, as some may recall, I have experience doing exactly that: My marathon PR was set 6 weeks after running 26.2 miles at MP. Obviously that "long run" was a full marathon race, which itself was a PR, 5 weeks after a previous PR marathon.

(2:47 in September, 2:45 in October, 2:40 in November). Not unlike what Mrs Stone has been doing lately!

Good discussion on long runs! I personally had always taken more of a time on my feet approach when training for like 5k-10k. Since shifting my focus to the roads after college, I find the quality long runs to be critical, mentally if nothing else, as I can think back to high-volume sessions I have completed to gain confidence for the race.

That being said, we are all an experiment of 1 when it comes to training, so think either approach can be fine, depending on the runner.

Def per the individual. Was reading about Kenny Moore and he ran a 10 day schedule with long runs of 28 and 30 miles leading into NYC 1980. But it doesn’t list pace

The overlong is interesting.

Really interesting stuff. For me in my two marathons I have had great confidence (maybe overconfidence) running MP the first 18 miles. I’d say my long runs have helped mentally and physically~ the pace and steadiness of the effort feels pretty familiar. But then my legs have really tied up the last 10 K, so is there a push/pull in getting more time on feet to practice this? Is it better fueling? A bunch of things to think about.

runrincerepeat wrote:

Def per the individual. Was reading about Kenny Moore and he ran a 10 day schedule with long runs of 28 and 30 miles leading into NYC 1980. But it doesn’t list pace

The overlong is interesting.

Read this on "the Kenny Moore" long run.

Genus! That is interesting. I can def seeing that being a huge boost mentally (if stay healthy). Hitting 20 miles in a marathon w 6 to go wouldn’t be as arduous mentally after doing the “Kenny Moore”.

I love reading about alternative training , as someone who thinks differently about most things in life than the general person. He would also do Hard-easy-easy-easy in marathon training w the hard days being 20+ miles and the easy days sometimes being two 20-30 min joggy doubles. He could also run a 4:03 mile In marathon training and did a lot of short reps like 300s. More of a fast twitchy guy like Rod Dixon for a marathoner it seems.

30 miles THEN 6xmile. Farrrrrrrrk. What an animal.

I think that Allen is onto something by simply running lots of marathon races. I've seen that work for others that I've ran into in the last few years.

The Kenny Moore is a fascinating idea. Was anyone else who read that intimidated by the idea of it? Just thinking about it made me flinch. But if you think about it, who among us could NOT actually handle that if we nailed the actual effort he was targeting? It seems to me that he didn't even care that there was a lot of recovery and was willing to sacrifice other potential quality days to get that monster workout in.

He also suggested a similar workout called "The Rothlin" as a potential stepping stone to "The Kenny Moore" and went as far as suggesting several buildup workouts to this. "The Rothlin" is essentially 20-25 miles at 80% of MP going into 1 x 10K with 2 min rests or 5 x 2K with 3 min rests. If it were me, I'd start with 20 into 10 x 1000.

There is a lot of focus on "glycogen depletion" mentioned in the article. This is completely contrary to how I approach my long runs. I purposely fuel my long runs with the same light breakfast I'd have before a race and the same in-race-fuel during the course of the run. That way everything is familiar, and I am able to run strong and have no need for recovery. I understand the concept behind it but I'm guessing the individuals I cited earlier whose success after frequent marathons in a short period of time were fully fueled in those races. Granted, I can't believe there is anything left in the tank when fueling during "The Kenny Moore" or "The Rothlin" anyway? Something tells me that in the end, if it really does matter, most of us wouldn't notice that much of a difference (going by the theory that one workout only makes so much difference)? In other words, I would lean toward fueling during an attempt at "The Rothlin".

Ive been toying with the idea of an over long .. but it prob wont end with a bunch of Intervals.

Also been thinking about doing the "Backyard Ultra" In may ... sounds terribly delicious

I like doing "over-distance" LRs by time, 3-4 hours out on trails even if its under a marathon distance. I would imagine its a similar stimulus as 3-4 hours on non-hilly routes even if the distance is ~5 miles shorter.

BHViking wrote: I'm guessing the individuals I cited earlier whose success after frequent marathons in a short period of time were fully fueled in those races.

It was interesting to see the glycogen depletion and "fat-burning" concepts still being cited.

Regarding back-to-back marathons, in my case, I would eat a generous high-carb dinner the night before, and grab Garorade on the course if it were offered. No breakfast, no other nutrition during the races. That was 1982.

Nowadays, a couple slices of toast and I carry gels. And I generally alternate sports drink and water at the waterstops. No problems during races, so never "practice" taking gels or anything on training runs.

Despite the apparent success at age 23, I never ran multiple marathons again. Instead, I've kinda replicated the idea with "23 miles five weeks out."

Honestly, though, the 7-minute improvement in the fall of '82 probably didn't reflect any true fitness gains. The September marathon was 90°, humid and HILLY. October was point-to-point with constant 20+ mph headwind. And November was near perfect ... (Not as perfect as Boston 1983, but that's another story).

Fascinating discussion, in any case. But I don't expect to incorporate any 30-mile plus 10km @ MP workouts this year!

In my next build (May race target and Feb plan start) I was planning on giving the Kenny Moore a try but will likely have to change it to be 20 + 6 or something along those lines. Was also going to give the Dos Santos a try (14-16 @ 80% M + 3 @ M + 6x400 @ 5k w/ 100 jg). In general I think the intent here is to teach you to run fast on tired legs. This is something I have trouble with so wanted to try to target some workouts that really emphasize it (will probably try a special block as well). Will see how it works for me I guess and hopefully can stay healthy.

Similar to BH I was planning on fueling. There is enough masochism in all of this already.

highhoppingworm wrote:

In my next build (May race target and Feb plan start) I was planning on giving the Kenny Moore a try but will likely have to change it to be 20 + 6 or something along those lines. Was also going to give the Dos Santos a try (14-16 @ 80% M + 3 @ M + 6x400 @ 5k w/ 100 jg). In general I think the intent here is to teach you to run fast on tired legs. This is something I have trouble with so wanted to try to target some workouts that really emphasize it (will probably try a special block as well). Will see how it works for me I guess and hopefully can stay healthy.

Similar to BH I was planning on fueling. There is enough masochism in all of this already.

HHW: hahahahah! Ain't that the truth! As I was thinking about this after my last post, I thought to myself that maybe 20 + 6 (comfortably fast by feel) with fuel would be a good enough workout for us mortals! So we are definitely on the same page there.

Allen: You bring up a good point that all races are not created equal! I can't imagine running a marathon in 90 degree heat. I think we've all experienced the 20+ mph headwind issue and that is HUGE.