deena needed help

[quote]Hello wrote:

but it not the same as someone running beside her helping her keep her momentum

Exactly how does that work?

Pacing provides a lot of benefit for the first 20-23 miles, but the last few miles you are simply going as fast as you can and pace regulation is of no value.

What about the spectator that Clint physically removed from the course? Oh, probably didn't know that happened did you? It happened. Clint was hired to chaperone the womens leader and run interference. He did that. Had the womens leader been someone other than Deena, he still would have done it. Great job today Clint. I wish the Olympics would have had the ability to remove spectators that interfered in the race.

I watched the video footage provided on the CBS2 website. I have to admit that I was a little bit disturbed by the amount of help above-and-beyond strict pacing that Clint seemed to be providing to Deena. However, it's not any different than having a stranger (or a friend, for that matter) help you out during your marathon.

Last year I was fortunate enough to come upon a man (a complete stranger) during the last 2-3 miles of my PR marathon [since some of you will ask what that is, it's 2:48; I had only been running for <3.5 years; I'm a woman] who could tell that I was struggling and fighting my way to keep my pace. He told me to tuck in behind him so he could help me - I gladly accepted his offer. He talked me through a bit to keep pushing and once he knew he couldn't stay with me/help me anymore, stepped out of the way and told me to go for it. He also let me know that there weren't any other women close behind me and that there was a woman about 40 seconds ahead and to go after her (there was also a group of people along the side of the road with 1+ miles to go who told me a similar thing - I went after her and ended up passing her).

No one (probably shouldn't assume that on these boards, should I?) would see this as unfair solely because it was a complete stranger who I happened to "meet" on the course. It's really no different than having someone you know, who is officially entered in the race, help you in the same way.

Deena was fortunate to have someone there that could help her, but it was all information she could have found out on her own (via looking around herself, which she did at least at one point that I saw on the video), by listening to those in the crowd, etc. Yes, it always helps to have someone in your face telling you to go for it (though I'm not saying that this is what Clint said as I have no idea, He didn't really seem to be saying much.), but it's also helpful to watch yourself reeling someone in at the end of the race (as Constantina was reeling in Deena).

So after considering this for awhile, it is my opinion that Deena wasn't unfairly helped. Deena and Constantina both ran tough and I truly don't believe that the outcome of the race would have changed if Clint hadn't been with Deena at the end. Deena still would have been running scared at the end to keep ahead of Constantina with or without him being there. It doesn't feel good to run scared at the end of a race, but it can help you to find power that you had no idea you could muster. She ran well, pushed hard, and won her first big city marathon in a well-deserved and fought out fashion.

Trisha

There wre no rules broken so we cant critise Deena diretly BUT what happened today (and in other races) is disgraceful. Bottom line is it doesnt help the sport or the sports image and the rule should be changed to reflect this.

I have mixed feelings about the male-paced female world records but at least they'r about trying to run faster than ever before. When it becomes obvious that the record is gone the male pacer should either drop the athlete or drop out.

Wejo seems honest about his 'trade' but the 'fairness' he alludes to is a tad trivial. What happened today was not fair to Dita. A mere 4 seconds split the athletes at the end and there is no way Deena would have held on to win had she no assistence over the latter miles.

We were denied what could have been an all time classic finish today - how great would it have been to see Deena get caught but hang on to win? Nobody wants the current situation so change the rules.

What a crock. This is watered down "racing." Lasse Viren's criticism of modern paced racing is right on. Why not just tie a string around her waist and have a cyclist keep her on a steady 2:18 pace? I don't care if it is in violation of IAAF rules or not; it is in very poor style. It isn't against rules, but it isn't worth anything close to an unpaced race.

I cannot understand why so many of you find something wrong with this.

I read all these posts and no one has provided a cogent point for why this is wrong. Trackhead and the female a few posts above who ran 2:48 are exactly right.

Deena used her own 2 legs to run 2:21:22. As long as she did that without the aid of drugs, there is nothing wrong.

She was not "towed" by a cyclist. Verran didn't even break the wind for her.

Who CARES if he was telling her how far back Dita was? How on earth is that "unethical"? In the Tour de France, Lance Armstrong has a car riding next to him and microphone in his ear giving him updates.

If Dita was really incensed by this, she should rig up a mike, have her coach on the other hand, and have him watching and giving pointers.

Some of you need to grow up. It's a race, Deena ran it herself, and she won it. She had Verran's generous encouragement in the tough final miles.

If you see a problem with that, train yourself to be fast enough to go and do the same for Dita next time.

The only one I see on this thread who can do that is Wejo, so the rest of you might consider giving your customary whining a rest.

well said!

she also had the crowd cheering for her

on another, somewhat related note, didn't Rod Dixon only begin putting down the hammer at the NYC Marathon when he was given word that the leader was slowing? surely had he not been told this, he would not have accelerated enough to catch the win.

There is probably only two or three women in the world that can pace a woman to that pace. How do you know what Verran was saying to her maybe he was asking her if the pace was okay. Lastly if you get rid of pacing than you better kiss all the World Records away because those were all done with pacers. Bekele, El G, Geb, Kannohonci,etc....

rules wrote:

The men running with Deena are not in her race, they are not competing for the same prizes. Plus in most cases they are running down pace and are more able to assist. Therefore they are illegally assiting her! Also, are all of the top women provided with escorts?

Every top woman has the option of an escort, just as the top men have rabbits (actually multiple groups of rabbits).

Top women often have escorts in large mixed races often to keep them from begin interfered with by other men.

All this "illegal" stuff is just so much BS.

"Who CARES if he was telling her how far back Dita was?"

Why does she need to know how far back Dita is? Because she wants to let up; and that is part of the disease of modern racing. Go out and run the race as hard as you can. To me, running in behind a pacemaker is in ridiculously poor style. This isn't just criticism of Deena, it is prevalent in all track and field and road racing events.

You fall into the trap of pointing out that most people critical of pacemaking are too slow to be worthy of being critical-what a non-sequitor, and a misguided one at that. You realize some here have run much faster than Deena or even Paula ever has, besides Wejo? No one wants pacing for Deena OR Dita, are you too dense to see that? It is poor style for Deena and would be poor style for Dita. This isn't sour grapes of one person winning and another losing; it is criticism of modern racing.

"Why does she need to know how far back Dita is? Because she wants to let up"

are you on crack? she was going for a sub 2:20 and american record. where does "letting up" fit into that equation. go back to your 3-hour marathon training.

Runner GU wrote:

I don't know who are but i'm sure i did not see your name on any world championships results or on "any" American records. Cut her some slack, she is the "BEST" defense americans have right now against foreign athletes.

What? You didn't see the name "oldguy" in any world championship results? I'm shocked!

The sentiment that you express in your second sentence is really pathetic.

No, I am not on crack, but thanks for the concern, nor am I a 3-hour marathon runner (although you do use the time-honored technique of trying to belittle someone's argument by discrediting their PR's) If she is truly pushing herself, why must she know where Dita is?

Trackhead, why do you keep bringing up other examples? You are attempting to point out hypocrisy, but you aren't going to find many critics of Deena's who condoned your other examples. Pace making is poor style. Period.

"style" counts in diving, ice-skating and rhythmic gymnastics -- NOT running.

Will all the geniuses who don't'know Deena, and don't know how she was feeling today, and don't know what she was thinking about at the end of the race, and don't know what Verran was saying to Deena, if anything, please explain how they "know" that Dita would have caught Deena without Verran there. Your speculation is just sorry armchair quarterbacking on race events that you think you saw, or just heard about. You might at least wait until there are interviews of Deena, Verran and/or Dita about what really was going on out there this morning. Pathetic B##ches!

trackhead wrote:

I see your point. I would not call today's occurence unethical, if only because there is no rule that prohibits it.

Now, if the IAAF changes its rules, we have a different story. But I leave it up to them, and I congratulate Deena on a hard win.

It's allowed if the other runner is an entrant in the race but not otherwise.

In my opinion a much more egregious case was one of the Ethiopian runners in the Athens Olympic marathon, her husband (a world class marathoner) was running alongside the course coaching her. At one time (just before she passed Paula) he was running on the course just behind his wife pacing her to make the pass, nothing was done about it and that was against the competition rules.

iceman is right, but sportsmanship and ethics should be important in EVERY sport.

wejo discussed what pacing includes and what Verran appeared to be doing went beyond simple pacing.