You should research cutting. It is a psychological disorder. Unfortunately, a lot of young adults are doing it for various reasons. One of them is to inflict pain onto oneself rather than commit suicide.
It has been glamorized in some pop music.
You should research cutting. It is a psychological disorder. Unfortunately, a lot of young adults are doing it for various reasons. One of them is to inflict pain onto oneself rather than commit suicide.
It has been glamorized in some pop music.
sdasdasdasdasds wrote:
I'm not buying it. Sounds like a privileged white girl who has had all the advantages in the world, and when things didn't go her way (injuries, burnout, etc) she blames coaches and Nike. Running is hard, to get to the top level you must go through difficult training and often injuries are often part of that. I know Alberto, and while he is definitely eccentric, he would never tell an athlete to starve themselves, quite the opposite. Mary Cain was injured because she had some of the worst form ever for an elite distance runner and compounded with lots of training, she had stress fractures. Simple, doesn't mean that Alberto is responsible for that. All athletes get injuries. Also, the part about Nike not having sports psych or dietitians, outright lie. They have them there for their athletes. Did Trenier, Hassan, Hassay or Shannon look emaciated like many of the distance runners at top collegiate programs? Absolutely not! Did Mary Cain ever look lean or thin? NO!, so she probably did need to lean out a bit to become a better runner. It's not weight shaming, it's science.
Mary Cain comes across as an entitled millennial.
Dadfan wrote:
My son runs for a D-1 program and in the space of a year, he's had two stress fractures. I don't blame, the coach, the program or his diet as I know all are solid. He's gotten injured because he's young and he's pushing his body harder than it can go. That's what makes him special as a runner and it is, unfortunately, problematic. Mary Cain was not running for some local college. She was running at the highest level. The people that dominate this realm live at altitude in Africa, eat very little, have no psychiatrists or doctors on staff and yet they crush Americans year after year. Some of it's doping but when you get over there, you quickly see they are just so much harder than we are here in the States.
Given the current climate, this video hits all the touchpoints that will get the "Amen" chorus to rise to their feet. But it's half a truth. Is Alberto batshit crazy? Pretty close. Are there any athletes that have succeeded in his program? More than any other American program out there. Are some of them female? Yup. Are they really thin? Yup. Just like the Africans.
Mary Cain's story is a sad one and should not be dismissed. But the headline here is not that her coaches were unresponsive to her personal struggles but that she turned to them before she turned to her parents. If you're a mother or a father and you're honest with yourself, you should realize that Mary Cain has a big part of the story she's not sharing.
asdfasdfasdfasdfasdf wrote:
Was with you till the last paragraph. Great post nonetheless.
afdsfasd wrote:
Shalane basically just admitted to know and not doing anything on twitter. Can we stop the narrative that she helps and encourage other females?
dasdasdsadadaadsd wrote:
ROJO can you explain why you are ok with this thread evolving over unsubstantiated claims yet you guys removed the thread earlier this week comparing Rupp and Hall, and how Hall might have been dirty too?
Quite the posting pattern. All about the deflection.
MikeMach1977 wrote:
dsrunner wrote:
Actually, your comments are false and misguided.
You should not diffuse or excuse the abuse and neglect Cain was subjected to. It went far beyond pure stupidity, this was pure evil. Psychopathy with a marketing department is not good for the sport.
Meanwhile your training terminology and mindset are outdated. Neither high nor low intensity training is inheritently unhealthy. That’s astoudingly simplistic spin on what in truth amounted to years of sadistic inexcusable abuse.
Her courage, strength and clarity are an inspiration.
Aside from her account, what solid proof do we have that she was subjected to abuse/neglect? The optics of her parents allowing her to move across the country without being there 24/7 seems like neglect. So how is that on Nike/NOP/etc? Do we have anyone from these circles talking about what happened besides Mary? The nice thing is that in the courts if something happened, you get to hear both sides of the story to try and figure out the truth. Thinking it is a forgone conclusion that her side is 100% legit is what got us Duke Lacrosse, mattress girl at Columbia, the kids from Convington, etc. I am going to say, it seems like negligence from parents/coaches/staff since they didn't pick up on signs Mary was in a lot of distress. The fact that she was in distress is probably due to a lot of things. In terms of the veracity of what was said to her, I will wait to hear a response. I am also inclined to think that HS girls should not be coached by AS as he seems to not understand who he is coaching, but I am not going to assume he was saying she was fat or didn't attempt to the best of his ability to coach/guide her. As evidenced by what happened he did a terrible job, but that doesn't mean he was being abusive. He may have been. I would like to see further accounts from other parties. Given what was said, I am sure we will get some in the near future.
Each year, tens of thousands or more parents allow their 17-18 year-old children to move across the country for employment, military service, higher education, etc. That does not strike me as neglectful.
ICON wrote:
...meanwhile in Ethiopia and Kenya today young 19-22yo women did 10x1000m @ 3:00 with 2 minutes rest jog and then ate a plate of fried corn meal and some fresh chicken along with some good greens to balance things out. After that they read the nytimes and laughed their heads off about this whole thing.
And how many of them actually make it to pro running? And among those, how many sustain their pro career?
Jack Dorsey wrote:
Twitter is calling ... for Nike to be shut down.
Lol. These are the same woke folks who bought nike gear in reaction to the kapernick campaign backlash.
While women (and men) may have mental health issues which result in disordered eating and self harm, you can't use this as a way to justify the NOP's actions. She was encouraged to keep a low weight and there are only a few ways to do that. The "plenty of women" who you are referring to probably experienced some sort of trauma too.
Her behavior changed when she entered the program, in response to unreasonable expectations and manipulation/emotional abuse. It's not only (not to minimize because these actions are also inappropriate) yelling and being weighed in front of others - those were just examples, I'm sure. It was likely the daily interactions and focus on her weight and trying to fundamentally change who Mary Cain was as developing person which caused her mental health issues. Chronic emotional abuse will break someone and the abuse is often subtle enough that it's hard to recognize easily.
Their manipulation was clearly by design. To make her the fastest she could be in the short term. This was for their benefit, only.
She disclosed a mental health problem and, not surprisingly, they ignored it. It's safe to say they also ignored her physical well being too, since her weight was low enough to cause several broken bones. This was a flag too.
This is a huge issue. Coaches, sport pyschs, etc have a responsibility to ensure the physical and mental safety of their athletes. I can't imagine how hopeless Mary Cain felt when the people she trusted and valued the most purposefully ignored this responsibility.
I am glad she spoke up. It took a lot of courage and healing to get here.
txRUNNERgirl wrote:
Raysism wrote:
I think it would be interesting to host a forum of all of the top American women runners where they could speak honestly about their relationship with food and weight. Shalane Flanagan and Jenny Simpson (to name just a couple) are quite a bit leaner now than when they came out of college. I'd be curious to hear their explanation of how that happened.
Flanagan only wrote 2 cook books on nutrition and fueling for athletes.
She didn't write either of those books. And in any event, I'm talking about a candid, honest discussion of weight by the top women athletes. It's easy for Shalane to tweet out condolences and tut-tuts today, but the fact is that she raced at a much lighter weight than when she started. How did she get there? What role does she really believe weight plays?
I'm sure this conversation would never happen, but it'd be interesting. And I suspect that today's events won't change anything in the long term. There's too much incentive for young women to stay quiet and stay skinny.
wejo wrote:
There are a lot of things wrapped up in the allegations againt NOP and Salazar by Cain and people are combining them all together.
By far the most disturbing allegation if true is that she told coach Salazar and the psychologist she was cutting herself and they ignored that. I almost feel like we should have two different threads. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WEIGHT SHE SHOULD BE .
While I was surprised about some of the other things ie weighing athletes in front of others, public shaming, I'm not too surprised that Alberto went to extremes to try and get Mary to race well. He has shown he will do just about anything he thinks is legal (although Cain says it was illegal) to get athletes to perform at their best and I'm not surprised he thought weight was important.
I think a lot of what Alberto did with his other athletes (allegedly encouraging them to take prescriptions that aren't theirs) is wrong, but if you do some of this same stuff with someone who is a minor it is much worse.
I've wondered why some of them having tried a lawsuit and maybe it is because Nike has deep pockets and they were consenting adults but in Cain's case for some of it she wasn't a legal adult and even if legally 18 for most of this, she wans't a fully mature adult mentally. Telling an 18 year old to take some stuff to drop weight I think it worse than doing it to a 28 year old.
People forget Mary was just a child when she turned pro. She came through the mixed at USAs for the first time with a stuffed animal. Performance wise she may have been a pro, but maturity wise she was not and should have been treated much differently. I do remember Robert saying "someone should contact her parents" when she signed with NOP. The BBC stuff wasn't out then right? But they had to ask around right? But even if they did and people said, "Alberto will try and make sure she performs well and do questionable things to make sure she does," there is no way they'd bring up the cutting stuff which is why I think people are almost ignoring it and discussing the weight and shaming stuff.
Her parents should have been the independent observer. They should have been more hands and Mary Cain should have also been more open about what she was going though. Those who cry "victim blaming" are basically saying Cain and her parents have zero accountability and couldn't have stopped things. It is not an all or nothing proposition. This is the real world. Both parties have some culpability and that needs to be talked about. Salazar and Rupp started early and have worked out well. So asserting that AS shouldn't coach any young athletes is a stretch. I think a better vetting process for both parties could have really been helpful. Why not have a trial period for 2-3 months? If it isn't working then at that point you can simply move in other directions. Good for both the coach and athletes. Maybe that needs to become more of a standard practice before people commit into a program that is going to dominate your life.
I understand some of what you are saying about the parents. Cain had quit her successful high school team before joining NOP right? One could argue they started her on the path to professional running and debate whether that was the right choice.
However, even if that was the wrong choice, they would have no way to know (if true) that a coach and psychologist would ignore a cutting attempt. I find it hard to believe anyone would do that. It's just so beyond the pale.
Actually focusing on the weight issue is as bad as the cutting and suicidal thoughts. People die from eating disorders every day, but the stigma is still that it's their fault and choice. That's why it's so easy to turn a blind eye when it's happening within your own team.
Philip Exeter CC wrote:
I feel for Mary, but Alberto's methods maybe just triggered something inside her that was already there. A normal person wouldn't resort to cutting wrists. If she needed a pyschologist that is valid, but why blame NOP for not having one when she could have freely sought out her own? In fact, probably better to have the seperation.
Alberto has done a lot of good, and in the judgement of some not so good for the sport. On the whole, his record as one of the best remains despite the attempts of social media and cancel culture to dictate otherwise.
Finally took long enough to find a normal, reasonable human.
People can jump on the AlSal is disgusting bandwagon all the want but is the girl not capable of self thought? She was lied to be she got there and made decisions to live with it just a little longer. But with expecting this specialist and that specialist to handle all your needs - c'mon robots... choose free will.
I want to support her but I can't accept that she just went along with it so much as did all the other athletes. It's not like NOP is supposed to do blood testing, bone density scans, MRIs daily and use the feedback to adjust training... if it is then f us all.
Trust in yourself - no different than any other job.
an actual human wrote:
Philip Exeter CC wrote:
I feel for Mary, but Alberto's methods maybe just triggered something inside her that was already there. A normal person wouldn't resort to cutting wrists. If she needed a pyschologist that is valid, but why blame NOP for not having one when she could have freely sought out her own? In fact, probably better to have the seperation.
Alberto has done a lot of good, and in the judgement of some not so good for the sport. On the whole, his record as one of the best remains despite the attempts of social media and cancel culture to dictate otherwise.
Finally took long enough to find a normal, reasonable human.
People can jump on the AlSal is disgusting bandwagon all the want but is the girl not capable of self thought? She was lied to be she got there and made decisions to live with it just a little longer. But with expecting this specialist and that specialist to handle all your needs - c'mon robots... choose free will.
I want to support her but I can't accept that she just went along with it so much as did all the other athletes. It's not like NOP is supposed to do blood testing, bone density scans, MRIs daily and use the feedback to adjust training... if it is then f us all.
Trust in yourself - no different than any other job.
In all fairness she was only 17 or 18.
I don't know how anyone can still say Salazar was a good man and his athletes didn't cheat... She just said Alberto is giving athletes banned substances. I bet that's why Mo misses all his drug tests. He's full of diuretics and who knows what else.
YetAnotherHobbyJogger wrote:
[quote]DC Wonk wrote:
The problem is: it is almost impossible to win medals without such training methods. If someone wants to be the best, he/she has to put everything aside and fix on training, diet etc. Maybe NOP was too tough, but that was common in many training groups. I have seen documentals about gymnastics in the Soviet Union - the same thing, rude with girls, but olympic medals. If America wants to have great runners - there should be strong group of talents who will undergo similar extra-tough training. Some will brake and give up, but some will growth to be winners. Do you thing Kenia has different approach? Train hard, and if you can not win - you are loser. Bye.
Assclown..
https://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20841935/what-its-like-to-be-coached-by-alberto-salazar/Hateraid wrote:
Leave those kids alone wrote:
Mary Cain? There have been others. Does Caitlin Chick sound familiar?
Caitlin Chock. She moved to Oregon at the same time as Rupp I believe when they were HS athletes. She's been battling eating disorders for years. Not sure she has told her full story but it would be an interesting one.
There you go.
DifferentStrokes wrote:
https://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20841935/what-its-like-to-be-coached-by-alberto-salazar/Hateraid wrote:
Caitlin Chock. She moved to Oregon at the same time as Rupp I believe when they were HS athletes. She's been battling eating disorders for years. Not sure she has told her full story but it would be an interesting one.
There you go.
Such a different account as to be irreconcilable almost. One of these days perhaps the full details will come to light.
txRUNNERgirl wrote:
1955 wrote:
I am also disappointed that the older women in Mary's group (apparently) didn't do more to support & protect her.
A) It shouldn't be up to them.
B) He likely didn't treat all his athletes the same, so they might not have seen it. Just because they didn't doesn't mean it didn't happen to her.
Did you even read the transcript or watch the video? One of the allegations is that they WEIGHED in front of everyone. There was also an incident where he berated her for gaining 5 pounds in front of the team after a poor race.
Holy smokes, dont comment if you cant bother to educate yourself on the material.
(Something like This) This needed to be done. In the long run ( no pun intended), this will help the sport.
6ft7inBBaller wrote:
Genuine question. Why is this being made into a gender issue and not just an issue of a broken system that values winning over the health of it's athletes? I guess I'm just not fully grasping how NOP abusing Mary Cain is related to the fact that they employed only male coaches. Are there no bad female coaches? Are there no bad female nutritionists? Obviously this was a broken, abusive situation but what does that have to do with gender? Is she suggesting that only females should coach females? If I'm coming off as a jerk, it's unintentional. I'm just seeking to better understand the situation as a male with an obvious blindspot for this type of thing.
I don't think you are coming off as a jerk. I think you are raising valid points.
I personally think the gender aspect of this is a little over the top but also do think Cain is 100% right that if more women were working for the NOP, it likely wouldn't have gone done this way. I think gender is emphasized here as it sells and because it's unlikely that a man in his 60s is likely to be aware how loaded eating is going to be for a teenage female athlete.
That being said, I wasn't thrilled how in promoting the story that Lyndsay Crouse tweeted out that "We have to do more to protect our best girls" in promoting this story. I think we need to do more to protect our best period whether it's Freddy Adu or Cain.
If her accounts of the public shaming (a term which I think is overused, though I'll certainly concede what she described is him "being a f'in d!ck"), pushing birth control meds, and especially ignoring the cutting are true, that's all awful.
However, the one thing that really stands out and what I'm most surprised about is that Alberto took what amounted to a "hurry up we've gotta win NOW" approach with a girl who was already succeeding and consistently improving in a system without all the bells and whistles.
I would have assumed a professional coach's first priority in scooping up a talent like Cain would be to make sure she doesn't find herself pushed too hard to get to the top too soon by a greedy, selfish coach. He had a solid 6-8 years before she even approached her prime, why push? She clearly had freakish talent, just keep her in a program of always taking the next logical step and she would've likely been international-medalist caliber in the not too distant future anyway.
It just seems his approach with her was so contradictory to his claimed approach with all athletes, and what he seemed to employ with Rupp with obvious success.
800 dude wrote:
Please stop the whining and deal with reality wrote:
Thin to win is accurate when it comes to distance runners, both male and female, it's just unfortunate that for females it often carries harsher penalties later in life. Everyone has choices.
Cain acknowledged that weight matters, but this story is about more than that.
1) Athletes should not be shamed and berated because of their weight, period.
2) Coaches with no expertise in nutrition should not be telling athletes what they're allowed to eat.
3) Athletes who have not even reached physical maturity should not be pushed to reach the same incredibly lean body composition as fully mature athletes.
4) Athletes should not be told to illegally abuse prescription drugs in order to lose weight.
damn 800 dude is at it again with his incredibly to the point and thoughtful posts.
My wife just called me about this pretty shocked. She never calls me about anything running related. Said video by Mary was "very powerful." She was asking me my thoughts and I said the cutting allegations were a whole different level.
*****
Then I saw that Elizabeth Weil who wrote NYTimes profile on Mary in 2015 is beating herself up on Twitter for the article she wrote. Essentially the article talks about how Alberto's goal was to do everything so Mary wouldn't suffer like Mary Decker did. Mary Decker was even more of a child phenom than Cain if that is possible and became a world star but not after a slew of injuries. Decker has 20 surgeries which is nuts.
Here's an excerpt:"In hindsight, Decker’s injuries were predictable. If a female athlete pushes too hard and is not eating enough through her teenage years, her body is at risk of not developing the fat needed to produce sufficient hormones to trigger menstrual periods and build strong bones. In 1992, the American College of Sports Medicine addressed the problem, defining the so-called female athlete triad: eating disorder (from internalizing the idea that skinnier equals faster), amenorrhea (lack of menstrual period) and osteoporosis (deterioration of bone). Later the N.C.A.A. started encouraging coaches to consider any athlete who showed signs of the triad as injured, until she was cleared to compete by a medical professional.
The focus on the long-term health effects of intense athletic training is especially important now. Nearly 500,000 American girls ran track last year. Cain, of course, is an outlier. She has broken records that existed for more than 20 years, shattering several of them by more than six seconds, an eternity in track. But she is also part of an expanding pack of very fast American girls. In 2001, only two high-school girls ran the 1,600 meters in under 4:50, and only one ran faster than 4:45. Last year, 46 girls ran faster than 4:50; eight broke 4:45."
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/magazine/mary-cain-is-growing-up-fast.html
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