DIII Cross Country 2007

I met Hany this weekend as he was my running counselor at my XC camp. Let me just say that he is in awesome shape and has really been putting in the work this summer. He is healthy and running 100+ a week and he definitely knows what he has to do this fall. Unlike most athletes Hany doesnt fake interviews. He gives real answers about how he feels. Every great athlete thinks highly of themselves and expects themselves to win. What is wrong with letting everyone know that you expect to win? He is an awesome kid, in great shape and his turnover looked very good. I ran 10 in 57 and change on some hills with him(my hard day) but he looked completely effortless.

5:40's pace for 10 miles better be effortless for someone that should be able to run a much faster pace(20-30 sec per mile) for a marathon. Real answers are fine and so is confidence, but arrogance and disrespect for his competition are a totally different situation. He could have stated he thinks he can win nationals with an injury free summer, but stating "God help all the other runners if I can get in a decent amount of mileage this coming summer," is blatantly dismissing any other runners in D3. I look forward to a spirited competition at regionals and nationals. Good luck to everyone this season.

Most D2 and D1 athletes couldn't cut the academics at many D3 schools so who really gives a shit?

hany makes me want to punch babies.

All I know is that NYU has been a minor league player w/ nationally ranked guys for the last decade--look back at ranked DMR's, milers, XC teams, etc....all of a sudden one solid year of running makes them the Queens, not Kings yet.. C'mon....I'd take a Williams, NorthCentral, Oshkosh, Calvin and others w/ some history of being there and winning.

grif wrote:

My top seven:

1. NCC

2. NYU

3. Calvin

4. St. John's

5. TCNJ

6. Oshkosh

7. Haverford

Anyone who doesn't have Calvin in the top two is either extremely ignorant or willfully irrational. Even if you hate them (like me) you have to respect them.

they didn't really have that great of a track season, where other teams did. only jed and their 800 meter runner qualified for nationals, with the 800 runnner running great and jed bombing

Come on! You have to put Bethany College from Bethany,WV in there somewhere!

well their coach has only been there about 8 years, and it took him a few to turn it around, so they have maybe been good for about 6 years. Yes they have had a number of guys on ncaa lists, and improved in xc alot, but I know their coach has alot of respect for the distance tradition at places like NC, Williams, and Oshkosh, and doesnt think they are the kings of anything.

DIII Ivy Leaguer wrote:

All I know is that NYU has been a minor league player w/ nationally ranked guys for the last decade--look back at ranked DMR's, milers, XC teams, etc....all of a sudden one solid year of running makes them the Queens, not Kings yet.. C'mon....I'd take a Williams, NorthCentral, Oshkosh, Calvin and others w/ some history of being there and winning.

Are there any NYU runners on this board that I could talk to about the program? I'm thinking about applying this year.

I don't think williams really are the kings of XC, first off they really have not been that beastly in XC, or distance as a hole, they have not even been the top team in NE CONSISTENTLY, yes i know they won last year, and are the favorites this year but still. The DMR however, they are always a fixture in, and always have some milers (makes sense)...they got a 4.11 and 4.15 kid this year. Anyway where is the 5k or 10k guy other than the Hobbit two years ago who do they have.

(Quote) "I don't think williams really are the kings of XC, first off they really have not been that beastly in XC, or distance as a hole, they have not even been the top team in NE CONSISTENTLY, yes i know they won last year, and are the favorites this year but still."

First off, I am a third party to NYU, Williams, NCC, etc. I had some family run Div III NESCAC and I am a Midwesterner so I have been a fan for 10+ years.

No one said Williams were the kings of XC, unless I missed something. You seem to imply that they were the only team mentioned. However, successful programs were listed and Williams was one of those. The poster was simply stating his skepticism of NYU's anointment by comparing it to long-established programs. That being said, NYU has been very strong as of late, particularly in the past academic year when their program seems to really be coming together (see also, Cortland and for several years, Tufts, etc. on the East coast). That is awesome. More competition raises everyone's game. NYU and the others deserve the times and team placings to date, as all programs do. There are no umpires muddling things up. We all agree it is a pure sport in that way, so nobody got screwed at Nationals or anything else. Bravo to everyone.

MY POINT: I think this discussion is a healthy one so far, but the quoted poster's perspective is limited, it seems, to the past six years. Fair enough if you don't think Williams has been the king of anything. You don't comment on NCC, which I find puzzling as they were DOMINANT in the '90s but have been as sporadic or more so in the 2000s in comparison to Williams with neither team snagging every regional championship and team trophy. Of course, these two teams' "sporadic" is the majority of Division III's best years. You're right: the numbers don't lie about the last six years being 'unbeastly' for Williams. But look a little closer.

Both coaches at NCC and Williams have been getting the job done for YEARS, which I believe is the reason a previous poster listed them as established forces.

Evidence:

In the 1990s, NCC was national champ or runner up EVER YEAR in XC. Prior to 2000 when they were 4th, they had finished out of the top 3 only one time in something like 27-30 YEARS. Their coach has not changed. Maybe the recruiting game has changed a little, but running is still running and Al Carius is not just a legend, he is THE legend of Division III XC. Maybe Carius is so revered by you that you chose not to point out the similar results the past 6 years between NCC and Williams, but if you are going on the recent past, both teams have been consistent top 15 even in "bad" years.

I took the liberty to look up some stats and since NCC's records are almost too gaudy to get through, I started with Williams and then petered out. Here ya go:

'93-4th; first year to compete; 1 AA

'94-1st; upset NCC; 4 AAs w/ indiv. Champ

'95-1st; upset NCC; 4 AAs

'96-5th; 3 AAs

'97-11th; 1 AA

'98-3rd; 2 AA

'99-11th; 1 AA

'00-5th; 3 AAs

'01-16th; 0 AAs

'02-7th; 2 AAs

'03-6th; 2 AAs

'04-9th; 1 AA

'05-no team; 2 AAs with indiv. National Champ

06'-7th; 0 AAs

12 straight years qualifying prior to '05

10 "top 10" finishes in past 14 years

4 trophies

2 national titles

11-12 times an individual in top 10

TRACK:

Since you were looking for them in something other than the mile or DMR, I'll say that generally Williams has been strong in the DMR and 1500/mile as stated during indoors, but they have shown to develop steeple-chasers particularly well. From my loose knowledge of the program, the mileage volume at Williams is not huge, which may lend itself to the mid-distances and steeple with all those mountains for strength over barriers, as opposed to NCC, which has done so well with high-mileage guys at the 5k and 10k.

I believe that Williams has had 10+ guys at 9:10 or better in the steeple, with a couple of national champs and several more top 3 individual placings. Maybe I know this because I love the steeple, but it seems like they put guys on the list or placing high every year or two.

From what I recall, all outdoors in past 8 years:

’99-Steeple 2nd 9:01

‘01-10k 2nd; 5k 4th (D. Lopez)

‘01-‘03-K. Remsen (8:56 PR), 3x AA w/ best 3rd

‘04-1500 NCAA champ M. Winkler

~’06-Wills AA in Steeple that year?

’07-three guys 9:18 or better

Throw in a few indoor AAs in 800, 1500, 5k, and Holtschulte in the outdoor 10k or 5k, particularly with one shoe on a couple years back.

(Quote): "Anyway where is the 5k or 10k guy other than the Hobbit two years ago who do they have."

The grammar and tense of the above statement makes it a little hard to refute or substantiate. So I ask, do you mean, "who do they have now that is good for XC and the 5-10k?" Or do you mean, "Besides the guy who was national champ in XC and 3x top ten, who have they produced?"

The 10k times, in particular, got extremely competitive in the 2000s in comparison to the 1990s outside of a few NCC studs of that era. At the beginning (2001) you could get in to Nats with a 30:5x. I believe you pretty much had to go auto (~30:2x) the past few years. A program that hasn’t produced a lot of 10k guys in that range probably isn’t going to start producing a slew of them. They get points where their coach has the most expertise. Maybe that is why they don’t have as many guys in the 5-10k as you might think they require to be considered good. Who knows, really?

I guess this post got a little out of hand. I know way too many of the statistics and just happen to be scrolling through when I saw the lack of perspective on the last 15 years. I didn't mean to focus on NCC and Williams. Maybe it was the epic battles in the mid-90s when I was first interested that got me focused on them.

There are always hungry programs and hungry coaches. Soon, one or two will join the ranks of the Calvins, NCCs, Williams, LaCrosses, Oshkoshes, etc. One or two of the above teams may slide a little giving room to NYU, or Cortland, or Luther, or Tufts, or Bowdoin, or Stevens Point, or Allegheny, or St. Johns, etc. (sorry if I didn’t mention you and you feel slighted).

I think a good benchmark to call a program consistent is 7-10+ years with some solid showings in XC (1-3 trophies or 3-7 top tens) and track (1-4 AA on average per Outdoor season)

I think there are a pretty limited number of programs that swing that, and they are most of the teams being mentioned. They all have great coaches and great athletes. I wish them luck this year and will be watching as always!

Div III Fan

Great work DIII Fan.

san dimas high school football rules!

Check out the new D3Running.com.

There are also message boards there so that we can discuss topics without some idiot telling everyone how d3 is inferior to d1 and d2.

I was only commenting on williams because i believed they were the only team listed that did not deserve that status...i think that NCC definatly does, so does calvin and many other top notch programs. I think williams always puts together a great team, but with so many other schools in the area with top notch academic programs, and the money to support strong athletics, NE is too deep to have a King

Everyone should sign up here, a site dedicated to D3. Looks great, congrats to whoever is doing it, anyone know who is running the site??

Check out the new D3Running.com.

There are also message boards there so that we can discuss topics without some idiot telling everyone how d3 is inferior to d1 and d2.[/quote]

I am not positive cause it is not linked, but it appears by format to be the same people or group that run d3hoops, d3football and d3baseball .com

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