DIII Cross Country 2007

So running sub 10 in the DMR twice in the past four years is a joke???

For just a distance program NYU does very well for itself

All of the Atlantic schools for Indoor track are a total joke. They run inflated times on the banked tracks and then run like shit at Nationals, getting their asses handed to them by the WIAC boys. quote]

Scoring last indoor's mile, 5k, and DMR as Atlantic Region vs. WIAC comes out...

Atlantic Region = 35 (30 points alone from NYU + Cortland)

WIAC = 32

1 Will Leer, Sr, Pomona-Pitzer 4:08.19

2 Brian Butzler, So, Wisconsin Whitewater 4:08.73

3 Mike Flint, Sr, Coast Guard Academy 4:11.99

4 Andy Cloke, Sr, Cortland S U N Y 4:12.33

5 Brian McConnell, So, Elmhurst College 4:12.88

6 Kevin Kelleher, Jr, Keene State College 4:13.00

7 Brian Kopnicki, Jr, College of New Jersey 4:13.20

8 Brian Harvey, So, Carnegie Mellon 4:13.26

9 Mack Chaffee, So, Williams College 4:13.43

10 Patrick Donovan, Sr, Elizabethtown College 4:17.50

1 Fred Joslyn, Sr, Cortland S U N Y 14:31.29

2 Jon Phillips, Sr, New York University 14:33.23

3 Will Leer, Sr, Pomona-Pitzer 14:34.24

4 Chris Erichsen, Jr, St. John's (Minn) 14:38.11

5 Tyler Sigl, Jr, Wisconsin Platteville 14:38.36

6 Hany Abdallah, Jr, New York University 14:38.78

7 William Kaul, So, Wisconsin Oshkosh 14:47.50

8 Donald Letts, Jr, Haverford College 14:50.66

9 Kevin Oelstrom, Sr, Wisconsin La Crosse 14:53.38

10 Joe Francisco, Sr, Widener University 15:01.37

11 Owen Kiely, Sr, Wesleyan University 15:02.56

12 Ryan Williams, Jr, New York University 15:03.21

13 Gary Garcia, Sr, Wisconsin Whitewater 15:32.85

Paul Zdroik, Jr, Wisconsin La Crosse DNC

Distance Medley Relay

1 Wisconsin Oshkosh (Andrew McGuire, A J Hollanquest,

Nate Boehlke, William Kaul) 10:01.85

2 Wisconsin La Crosse (Mike Herlihy, Brad Peterson, Gabe

Siehr, Paul Zdroik) 10:02.96

3 Mount Union College (Kyle Basista, Cecil Shorts III,

Ryan Garro, Jeremy Velliquette) 10:03.44

4 Loras College (Kevin Oberfoell, Jason Dayton, Ray

Orris, Ben Grant) 10:05.89

5 New York University (Ryan Williams, Dan Napeciek,

Bernier Lauredan, James McCarthy) 10:05.93

6 Wartburg College (Andy Hodge, Derek Peth, Scott

Tjeerdsma, Patrick Johnson) 10:06.66

7 College of New Jersey (Chris Guerriero, Rob McGowan,

Matt Randal, Brian Kopnicki) 10:06.96

8 Williams College (Bill Ference, Andrew Arons, Mack

Brickley, Mack Chaffee) 10:07.46

9 Brandeis University (Dan Suber, Ralph Chery, Keith

Thibault, Matt Jennings) 10:10.40

Wisconsin Stevens Pt (Travis Nechuta, Pat Leonard,

Greg Haak, Dom Meyer) DQ

I am not sure you sat there and thought about your post for more than 30 seconds before typing, because you just make little sense.

First off NYU has finished above case and above 5th a few times recently. Second, Who cares about the conference meet when you place top 10 at nationals (clearly the goal for Nick and his team). Second I think there are a few wisco schools that place 5th or lower in a TOUGH conference not unlike the UAA and place high at nationals, and no one is talking shit on them.

Next NYU has 17,000 students not 40,000 commonly seen at wisco schools. It is a top notch academic university just like the other UAA schools you have mentioned, and so your not going to have random 100 runners showing up to make a 4x1. Nick is a distance coach, and so he puts his focus on recruiting and coaching distance runners and has done a very good job, if you could not tell for yourself.

NYU AND BRANDEIS rarely run 10.25 in the DMR, but when they do it is because it is a B or C or even a D team, running at some low key meet, where they can run 10.25 and still pick up major points. These coaches respect their athletes, and look to have them excel in one individual event rather than doubling or tripling for points in a relay.

Think before you speak...

p.s. I do NOT run for NYU

NYU at UAA:

2007: Indoor 5th, Outdoor 5th

2006: Indoor 6th, Outdoor 5th

2005: Indoor 4th, Outdoor 7th

2004: Indoor 4th, Outdoor 5th

As a TEAM, that's pretty damn bad. Particularly because the other schools in the UAA are just as good academically (Case excluded) and are about a third of the size. Additionally, you can't really make the argument that it's solely because Nick is a distance coach, since Donatelli at CMU is a distance coach as well and his teams are nowhere near as bad in conference.

Also, for fun:

NYU/Brandeis DMR, Seed vs. Performance:

2007: NYU 10:01.40c, Brandeis 10:06.71c -> NYU 10:05.93 (+4.53s), Brandeis 10:10.40 (+3.69s)

2005: NYU 9:59.25c, Brandeis 10:08.46c -> NYU 10:31.92 (+32.67s)

2004: NYU 10:06.08c -> NYU DQ

Top Seeds vs. Top Performances:

2007: Williams, Mt.U, TCNJ -> Oshkosh, Lacrosse, Mt.U

2006: Williams, Lacrosse, Wesleyan -> Lacrosse, NC, Mt.U

2005; NYU, Keene, Wesleyan -> Wesleyan, NC, Amherst

2004: TCNJ, Whitewater, Platteville -> Platteville, Lacrosse, Whitewater

Gee, you think you Atlantic guys would be tired of getting f***ed in the ass by the WIAC guys, no?

pure ignorance wrote:

Next NYU has 17,000 students not 40,000 commonly seen at wisco schools.

Enrollment

Total: 50,917

Undergraduate: 19,401

Graduate and Professional: 18,990

Noncredit Programs: 12,526

Taken from

your facts and look before you post.

And let's assume (probably correctly) that undergraduates are the primary population for the track team. We have:

UAA Undergraduates

---

NYU: 20,965

Emory: 6,646

WashU: 6,223

CMU: 5,495

Chicago: 4,391

Case: 4,186

Brandeis: 3,158

UAA Performance

---

Let's include XC into this to give NYU at least semblance of defense for their ineptitude, and we'll say 3 points for a championship, 2 for 2nd place, and 1 for 3rd.

2006-2007: WashU 6, CMU 4, Emory 4, NYU 3, Brandeis 2

2005-2006: CMU 7, WashU 6, Chicago 2, Brandeis 1, NYU 1

2004-2005: WashU 8, CMU 5, Chicago 5

2003-2004: WashU 8, Emory 6, Chicago 4, CMU 1

That's probably enough to get the point across.

UAA Performance vs. Enrollment

I'm assuming on this that enrollment has been relatively static at all of these schools, as I have no historical data on it.

---

WashU: 6,223 students/40 points = 155.75 students/pt

CMU: 5,495 students/17 points = 323.23 students/pt

Chicago: 4,391 students/11 points = 399.1 students/pt

Emory: 6,646 students/10 points = 666.4 students/pt

Brandeis: 3,158 students/3 points = 1052.6 students/pt

NYU: 20,965 students/4 points = 5241.5 students/pt

Uh, yeah, that's pretty damn bad.

Source: Wikipedia, UAA Schools' Athletic Departments

i'm waiting for someone to say its because nyu saves up its athletes for the big meets. if you look at the xc meet historically, brandeis and cmu both kick the shit out of nyu at the national meet. let's not forget cmu has been 8th and 12th, and 19th over the past four years and brandeis won the thing back in the 70s. they're obviously not north central or even a decent wiac school, but the people with hard ons for nyu are idiots.

ahh so its just misinformation or ignorance then?

jeese, you guys have to much time on your hands; get out and train

...120 miles last week

I think he meant "get a life."

thats an interesting interpetation of "get out and train"

but seriously are you kidding me?...Im a runner...by default I have no life...I mean come on thats a given

Where can I get last year's results from nationals?

Maybe thats because they dont try to field a full team, due to a severe lack of on-campus facilities. No where to throw, no outdoor jumping pits, and yes they have the armory indoors, but its 20-30 minutes each way from downtown depending on traffic. All other UAA schools have on campus facilities. NYU also has seperate mens and womens programs, so mcdonogh is the only coach for his full team really. Every other UAA school has at least 2 full time and many part time coaches on staff. Hard to get help in nyc for 2-3k when they can coach HS for far more. NYU also has the most diverse academic programs of any uaa school, and the arts programs ask for alot of your free time outside of class. Alot of kids quit due to time committment.Anyone who has ever spoken to nick, can tell you he doesnt go into uaa's ever thinking about points. doesnt triple kids like Wash, UC, and CMU do now. Maybe thats why they have been getting better with this current group of kids compared to the group 4 years ago. Go back to pre-mcdonough, pre-2000, NYU was always 7th or 8th in all 3 seasons.NYU has one of the toughest recruiting sells in the country, come to NYC(downtown) to run and train outside. Most kids go to NYU to graduate with a 6 figure job, not to run 14:00. WIAC kids graduate and then start to think about what they want to do, which is fine, but it is just a different mindset.

brandeis has a great coach now, but lets be real, hasnt done anything in 10 plus years in xc. Cant really see what you mean by CMU kicks the ..... out of NYU at ncaa's?? explain that one.this is a xc thread about dIII 2007, maybe we can get back to talking about that.

the entire uaa sucks wrote:

i'm waiting for someone to say its because nyu saves up its athletes for the big meets. if you look at the xc meet historically, brandeis and cmu both kick the shit out of nyu at the national meet. let's not forget cmu has been 8th and 12th, and 19th over the past four years and brandeis won the thing back in the 70s. they're obviously not north central or even a decent wiac school, but the people with hard ons for nyu are idiots.

CMU has another full time field events EXPERT Gary Aldrich, working with both men and women.

Comparing qualifying events (races) with tactical ncaa races is a joke. Cant do it. Thats like saying when Geb wins the olympics with a 152 last 800 in the 10k, but runs a minute off his PR, he had a bad day. There are days you race to qualify, and days you race to win or place.

As for performance, shit happens at NCAA's. NYU got dq'd when their 400 guy got hit from behind while in 3rd and the stick went into the crowd, an automatic dq. 05 i think their anchor (408split) got hurt in the 5k and they had to sub someone who just blew up. Every team usually has reasons why stuff happens. Kids been sick all week before nc's, someone tripped etc. looking back years later it looks like crap on paper but there is usually a reason.

[quote]the gas face wrote:

As a TEAM, that's pretty damn bad. Particularly because the other schools in the UAA are just as good academically (Case excluded) and are about a third of the size. Additionally, you can't really make the argument that it's solely because Nick is a distance coach, since Donatelli at CMU is a distance coach as well and his teams are nowhere near as bad in conference.

Also, for fun:

NYU/Brandeis DMR, Seed vs. Performance:

2007: NYU 10:01.40c, Brandeis 10:06.71c -> NYU 10:05.93 (+4.53s), Brandeis 10:10.40 (+3.69s)

2005: NYU 9:59.25c, Brandeis 10:08.46c -> NYU 10:31.92 (+32.67s)

2004: NYU 10:06.08c -> NYU DQ

Are you people seriously trying to argue that NYU has a bad program?

This is retarded, NYU is a good team now, end of story, they dont recruit sprinters etc. because they do not have a track, what sprinter wants to go to a school without a track. This has been the dumbest argument in the world. CMU has assistant coaches Nick does not, end of story there. No need to pit UAA schools against one another cause I can tell you there is nothing but respect there.

I am not even sure what we are all argueing about any more.

What I am sure about is that it has nothing to do with XC.

Lets sum up the past 2 pages of this thread. First the Wiac schools challenge the atlantic schools primarily NYU because they feel threatened this XC season. This in turn becomes an attack on the lack of a track team (good thing this is the xc thread).

Next the attack continues on the track into the distance events challenging two UAA schools about their DMRs one of which had not made a DMR to nationals in ages before this year, and had their anchor unable to compete with hamstring problems...seems fair to bring them into the story.

Then we have some strange system of scoring the atlantic vs the wiac in the distance races...good in theory but well again this is CROSS COUNTRY

Then size starts getting talked about..NYU has under 20 undergrad, but because they are in the city and offer not just grad school and other professional schooling, but also night classes not for credit, all of these students got brought into the student population. First off we really should not be even including grad school in this number, but non credit students are not even eligible to run, so get over it.

The we start talking about how NYU has not placed better than 5th in the last 4 years in indoor or outdoor. First off not true they have placed 4th a few times which we mentioned and second off its CROSS COUNTRY we are supposed to be talking about. The we start to have some crazy point system about 1st,2nd,3rd in track and dividing it by the student body, which is just stupid for a whole number of reasons...not the least of which being that you are looking at not just the male populations. Either way it is just a dumb statistic.

Then we start talking about the lack of facilities the NYU has such as no track etc, and how Nick is a distance coach. Then, oh then we start discussing how donatelli is a distance coach too...this is true just about every school in the country sans maybe bowdoin has a distance coach, they also have assistance that specialize in the sprints, jumps, throws etc. NYU does not have that.

Oh and one more thing since when is case western reserve university not a top notch university...i believe they are top 40 or better in the US news and World Report rankings, have an endowment over 1 Billion, and do some pretty top notch research.

Just remember...This Thread is about one thing...

CROSS COUNTRY