Man, to hell with Salazar, to hell with NOP and to hell with Nike. They've become perverse and corrupt and it is unconscionable what they did. I have one pair of Nike shoes (racing flats) and I'll never wear them again, nor will I ever again buy a Nike product.
Slowly people are realizing what has been evident for a long, long time. Alberto Salazar is not a decent human being.
MODS: please change the title of this thread to the weekly how many pull-ups could a normal healthy individual do
FormercoachTX wrote:
For anyone that has coached, at least at the HS level, you've probably seen a plethora of eating disorders. I've sadly witnessed college athletes take it upon themselves to loose weight in trying to drop times. And it can work...for a time, but there are consequences and warning signs that signal decline (mentally, emotionally, physically). However, a positive support system i.e. parents, coaches, teammates, sports psych. can go a long way. In this case its great to see that Mary was able to regain control over her life and kudos to those that helped. The win at all costs attitude usually looses in the end.
It doesn't "work" unless you call your body going into starvation mode working. This is just as bad, if not worse, than performance enhancing drugs. You completely wreck the athlete's health for a couple years of pseudo speed due to your body going into overdrive to find fuel.
When Mary decided to move out west to train with the NOP I thought it was a poor decision on behalf of her and her parents. The mere fact of leaving a protected home environment which included a support system of friends, family, and a trusted coach along with unprecedented success made zero sense for someone her age. I do believe a MAJOR factor in her moving was a lucrative shoe contract which is not entirely a bad thing just so as you make sure all the "Life" factors are well looked into and sorted out. Quality of life which includes "Adult" supervision, health care (including mental), and having a basic understanding of how to take care of yourself must be addressed. If I'm sending my teenage daughter (I currently have a daughter who is being recruited for soccer) across the country to train with what has been described as a "Male-dominated" hardcore training culture of mature professional athletes I'm going to make DAMN sure all the "Quality of life" boxes are checked and confirmed.
I'm sorry, and not to belittle her emotional trauma but this was a CLEAR and OBVIOUS case of extreme homesickness and lack of parental guidance. This was a poor decision that was motivated by money and dreams of instant success. I'm smelling a major lawsuit on the horizon. Her parents should be ashamed of themselves for allowing their daughter to be abused (if true) and or not prepared to make such a life-altering decision. Maybe her dad (Dr. Cain) needed to pay less attention to his patients and more attention to his daughter.
Ok, I 'm curious. Why?
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Jgt11 wrote:
To get any Olympic/wc medal your going to have to enter the territory of unhealthy. Bekele was eating only 2k calories a day when getting back in shape for the marathon. With women it's even riskier and you have to account for this in diet/training.
Completely right - many elite athletes are known for eating extremely low amounts of calories.
Evan Jager shared his nutrition plan for 2 training weeks - his lunch usually consisted of 1 or 2 slices of toast. No wonder he is able to stay at 140 lbs as 6'2" guy!
Jan Frodeno, best triathlete/Ironman in the world, says that he only drinks a coffee as a breakfast and goes straight into his first, very long training session. He also says he doesn't eat stuff like pasta because it would make him gain weight. He is also incredibly lean despite being VERY tall (still very muscular, since he does swimming/weights/biking, but almost no fat).
There are exceptions - like Jordan Hasay said she is eating 5,000 calories a day, which either means that NOP has found some drugs that allow someone to eat ridiculous amounts AND still lose weight somehow, OR she is severely overestimating how much she eats/wants to portray a different image than reality (eating 5,000 sounds better than eating 1,700).
Male athletes can develop eating disorders too. I personally know a few, including one who eventually killed himself. They are just able to deny/hide it better because their body works differently than a woman's.
Can she sue for lost wages?
I haven't had time to read through all of the posts but I'll say two things.
1. Kara Goucher was the adult who finally spoke up about NOP. All of her doubters here on LR should eat their words.
2. The Silence of Great Distance (book) is all about this; it's nothing new.
txRUNNERgirl wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Completely right - many elite athletes are known for eating extremely low amounts of calories.
Evan Jager shared his nutrition plan for 2 training weeks - his lunch usually consisted of 1 or 2 slices of toast. No wonder he is able to stay at 140 lbs as 6'2" guy!
Jan Frodeno, best triathlete/Ironman in the world, says that he only drinks a coffee as a breakfast and goes straight into his first, very long training session. He also says he doesn't eat stuff like pasta because it would make him gain weight. He is also incredibly lean despite being VERY tall (still very muscular, since he does swimming/weights/biking, but almost no fat).
There are exceptions - like Jordan Hasay said she is eating 5,000 calories a day, which either means that NOP has found some drugs that allow someone to eat ridiculous amounts AND still lose weight somehow, OR she is severely overestimating how much she eats/wants to portray a different image than reality (eating 5,000 sounds better than eating 1,700).
Male athletes can develop eating disorders too. I personally know a few, including one who eventually killed himself. They are just able to deny/hide it better because their body works differently than a woman's.
Jgt11,
re: Evan Jager. Wrong. He actually ate quite a bit more than that. The two weeks you're referring to can be found here:
http://weareeaton.com/evan-jager/Mary Cain? There have been others. Does Caitlin Chick sound familiar?
wtf, please wrote:
Goucher left NOP in 2011 . Cain joined in 2013. How can she not know? It's like how Rupp et all have never possibly heard of the "allegations against Salazar" until October 2019.
Seriously. Think about what you're saying. Otherwise you live in a world where Rupp had no clue.
Would anyone be surprised if Rupp lives such a sheltered from the outside world life that actually is telling the truth?
The whole obsession with losing weight is beyond me. Reminds me of an interview with Ben Blankenship where someone asked him about “altitude conversions” and he laughed it off saying he doesn’t believe in that sh!t. I get there’s some science and truth to sport but what happened to being able to eat a pizza and have a beer and crush your 10 miler in the morning?
In other words... Mary Cain had an early developmental path which allowed her to be a HS star, but this is then linked to later-in-life osteoporosis, etc., with broken bones, etc.
It's almost like stressing your body for "Olympic glory" ain't worth it.
I should have phrased it as “they can get by” vs work. Also unless an athlete begins to mention to you (coach) or her teammates that they haven’t got their period in months it can be a slow process in deciphering what’s going on. And the injury’s happen. However, male coaches need to be especially more in tune to female athletes. Not every situation begins with “ hey coach sally has mentioned she’s having cereal again after her long run and I’m concerned”
There are always 2 sides to a story, but from what Cain is saying she was crying for help and it was ignored. Her parents entrusted her in the hands of NOP and they have failed.
Just to clarify, she's blaming someone else for her failures and has decided to be a victim? Do I have this right?
Pdxoldrunner wrote:
Firstly for Mary I am sorry. As a parent of a teenager who told us about their self harm it is the most devastating moment I’ve ever had. Your world stops nothing matters, work life the future all extracurriculars. You stop, everything to focus entirely on the safety and well-being of your child. We immediately went into action getting therapy and medical doctors removing them from the causes of stress that we felt were contributing to the anxiety and depression. Having said all that I can’t possibly imagine sending my child across country at 18 years old to become a professional athlete without being involved somehow it is sad she didn’t turn to her parents first it is sad that the sports psychiatrist and coach did not immediately pump the brakes and look after their well-being. In hindsight, lots of things should change. There should be a full-time female doctor on the team there should be a full-time female coach, a nutritionist, and someone who’s not financially vested overseeing this. How many kids have the emotional and physical strength to be a professional in any sport at 18? not many. The road is littered with the skeletons of phenoms. I hope Miss Cain is able to move forward in a healthy and successful life. Maybe we don’t allow teenagers to turn professional, without checks and balances in place, just look at what happened in the world of gymnastics.
Maybe USATF should set guidelines requiring elite training groups to have their athletes work with a nutritionist or psychologist, etc. who are unaffiliated to the group. Like how the NFL requires guys coming back from concussions to be cleared by an independent neurologist with no vested interest in rushing the guy back.
Co-Flounder wrote:
Same old story. Young college student-athlete drops out to turn pro.
Ultimately the young professional athlete can’t hack the regimen for various physical and mental reasons and then quits and blames the coach, sponsor and the system.
It’s a story with a sad ending. Mary made the decision to try to become the fastest female runner in the world and she failed.
This happens to successful young athletes every year. It is competition. Some win and some lose.
Interesting that she didn’t mention anything about PEDs other than diuretics and birth control pills.
Maybe someone should start a women’s only training program? Didn’t China have one in the 90s but it was coached by a man?
She wasn't ready to be the best runner ever. Name one runner who was the best that wasn't rail thin. The truth is, runners have in season weight and eating and out of season. That is a fact of the sport. Anyone who claims otherwise is being disingenuous. It was simply a bad fit and it sounds like buyers remorse. Maybe what Nike/AS/NOP should have done was explain exactly what it takes and their program to get there. There have been a good amount of people who thrived under this group and a lot that have washed out. Those who have reached the top have been at the very top. At 17 Cain probably didn't realize what she was getting into or the work and commitment that it would take. It is running, diet, rest, weights, etc. I am sorry that she had a bad experience and wish her well, however her side of the story is just that. As many have pointed out, it sounds like both parties were at fault, but in this culture no one wants to take any responsibility. The world just happened to Mary Cain. I would be curious to hear what Alberto and all those associated with Mary in her time at nike had to say.
Can someone refresh me on when she graduated from HS and how long she moved to oregon to work with NOP? i know he coached her since she in HS but I thought she was only there for a year before she bailed. but based on all of this, it sounds like she had to be there longer than that.
This is shocking news. An athlete and a coach didn't work out. This must be the first time this has happened in all of sports.