"People have been threatened at this meet" - Kara Goucher

He is asking here because he doesn't know who they are. He only knows to attack Goucher and Magness. The other identities are a mystery. This is frustrating to the PR drones: who do they attack next?

The PR drones even came on the forums asking for information about the USADA: funding sources, number of employees, etc. The USADA looked like a juicy target to go after. Good luck with that.

I don't think that you're a PR person. I think that very few of the people saying the kinds of things you did are, and that's not what I meant by "you guys." But many of "you" do sound eerily alike.

I genuinely wonder why people think this. Is it because she's withholding details, even though it's clear why this is in her pest interest? Is it because people think that Salazar's letter made her look dishonest? Is it because she hasn't said anything about "real" PEDs yet? This may be a dumb question since historically people haven't needed any reason to start bashing away at her, Fleshman and countless other elites.

Your use of the passive voice here suggests that you may not be entirely convinced of Salazar's honesty and motives. I prefer that people say, "Alberto has explained the testosterone gel and the asthma," so I can start arguing with them.

It's not getting any meaningful exposure in the United States outside the running community. I think that a group of combative housewives with dwarfism gets far too much exposure every time that show "Little Women" comes on. None of us can control what the media deems newsworthy.

Has any of them said that they haven't? People are fixated on the idea that anyone speaking against Salazar would have come out with everything he or she knows from the very start, an idea that for any number of obvious reasons is untenable.

If it wasn't, 90 percent of us would be banned!

I think we at Letsrun need a formal term for invoking the term "witch hunt" along the lines of "Godwin's law."

Randy Oldman wrote:

NOP would not have employed someone who had never coached.

Mary Decker-Slaney was his most famous/infamous athlete.

I didn't think he gave the impression that all 55 were part of NOP, quite the opposite.

Right -- I knew he had coached her and surely others whose names I never learned or have forgotten.

I have to disagree with your last sentence. He leads a section titled "THYROID AND ASTHMA MEDICINE IN THE OREGON PROJECT" with a four-point bulleted list, the second of these being "Of 55 athletes only 5 have been diagnosed with hypothyroidism after I had started coaching them (9.1%)." Later in this section, he says, "So the record is clear, I have coached 55 professional athletes in my career. Of those 55 athletes only 5 have been diagnosed with hypothyroidism after I had started coaching them." From this I gather that up front, he wants people to believe that all 55 were NOP members, but then is careful to backpedal a little in the event someone decides to fact-check this.

As I noted before, the WSJ article about Jeffrey Brown says that as of April 2013, 30 people had been part of the NOP and 5 had been diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Since 5/30 = 17 percent and 5/55 = 9 percent, it's obvious why Salazar would want to go with 55 rather than 30 (or whatever the total would be if you add in runners who have joined the NOP since April 2013).

I'd be very surprised if the total number of past and present NOPers who have regularly taken thyroid medication is actually only six (the five Salazar mentions as having been diagnosed by Jeffrey "I use my own TSH cut-off" Brown with hypothyroidism after joining the Project, plus Kara Goucher, who was diagnosed with Hashimoto's before coming on board).

Goucher has nothing on Salazar. ZILCH - NOTHING. Yet her panties are all ruffled. I think this a reaction to her getting pasted and knowing her career is over.

KMB wrote:

I'd be very surprised if the total number of past and present NOPers who have regularly taken thyroid medication is actually only six (the five Salazar mentions as having been diagnosed by Jeffrey "I use my own TSH cut-off" Brown with hypothyroidism after joining the Project, plus Kara Goucher, who was diagnosed with Hashimoto's before coming on board).

Salazar has special access to pharmaceuticals: Asia. He only needs a few athletes on drugs to bump their performance. He can give specially purchased identical-similar drugs to others. If he gets caught with the drugs he simply claims: oh that's so-and-so's extra supply. Salazar buying more than is properly prescribed is what will kill his unethical program.

bold and brilliant wrote:

Goucher has nothing on Salazar. ZILCH - NOTHING. Yet her panties are all ruffled. I think this a reaction to her getting pasted and knowing her career is over.

Nice post! Solid 10/10 on the LAMEness scale.

So the hand labeled Cytomel bottle that Alberto admits has his hand writing, the chart with Rupp on Prednisone and testosterone medication that Alberto admits is real, the accounts of hiding drugs in hollowed-out books and magazines that Alberto admits are true (but only allowed prescriptions!), the account of having Androgel in the Park City condo that Alberto admits is true (but for my heart! I mean, my shrunken balls!), the newspaper interviews and quote from his autobiography showing he was indeed coaching Mary Slaney when she tested positive, the statements of 17+ former NOPers - none of this is considered evidence by your lofty standard?

Alberto's wacky sabotage experiment sounds plausible to you? You must also believe that Justin Gatlin truly was sabotaged by his masseuse.

Did it occur to you that Alberto might close the door before engaging in doping? Why do you think he might insist on personally massaging Rupp before meets when they have a professional masseuse, and why do they always bunk up? I'm just curious what it would take to convince you - do you expect that a video will surface with Alberto applying a gel to Rupp, and announcing in a clear voice "I'm Alberto Salazar, today's date is xx/xx/xx and I am applying illegal testosterone gel to Galen Rupp's leg without a TUE or prescription for the sole purpose of an illegal competitive advantage!" If someone is murdered and there is no video of it or direct witnesses, by your standard would there be no way to prove murder?

You think this is all because of personal vendettas and bad blood? Do you think David Epstein and the BBC guy have some prior history of bad blood with Salazar? Did Don Catlin say that Alberto tried to cheat to get TUEs because of a personal vendetta? All 17 former athletes and assistants can be explained away as liars with personal vendettas?

Lot of athletes, masseuses, and assistant coaches leave other coaches, often on less than ideal terms. How come you never hear doping allegations against them? Is there something special about Alberto that draws all these allegations?

And please, enlighten us with some of your workplace stories about witch hunts. Did they burn the witch in the end? Someone on these boards and on flotrack has an obsession with witch hunts, is it just you or does everyone else like using this phrase now too?

MikeM wrote:

I love my job a Freud doing PR work. I was bullied when I was a lad and I love attacking people and being paid for it.

Sure...you can use my name, but honestly you are just a giant faceless toolbag who doesn't want to say where you live, what you do, and hate facts/discussion.

KMB--pardon me for asking, but do you know Kara Goucher or Adam Goucher personally? Also, I'm wondering what your profession is--if you don't mind saying.

KMB wrote:

correct wrote:

Right now, I don't think they are coming off in the best light, particularly Kara Goucher.

I genuinely wonder why people think this. Is it because she's withholding details, even though it's clear why this is in her pest interest? Is it because people think that Salazar's letter made her look dishonest?

Correct. She was revealed to be dishonest:

1) She lied about how and when she got the Cytomel bottle.

2) The comments about Galen's AR in Brussells were misleading.

Montesquieu wrote:

KMB--pardon me for asking, but do you know Kara Goucher or Adam Goucher personally? Also, I'm wondering what your profession is--if you don't mind saying.

Both of your queries are irrelevant.

Just figured you should know.

Montesquieu wrote:

KMB--pardon me for asking, but do you know Kara Goucher or Adam Goucher personally? Also, I'm wondering what your profession is--if you don't mind saying.

I don't mind at all. The fact that I have disagreed with you here doesn't mean that I don't appreciate your unflagging civility.

I do know the Gouchers, but not especially well. I run into them around town now and then (I'm in Boulder).

Over the years I've written a bunch of stuff for Running Times, Competitor and other health and fitness pubs, and have one book to my credit. I've also written some embarrassing tripe for lowbrow entities such as content mills. I help design training plans for other distance runners. At the moment I and Brad Hudson have a book proposal in the hands of a number of publishers, with one very modest offer made so far. Although it may not look like it, however, I am pretty shy on ambition lately.

What makes you ask (if you don't mind the intrusion ;o))

MikeM wrote:

MikeM wrote:

I love my job a Freud doing PR work. I was bullied when I was a lad and I love attacking people and being paid for it.

Sure...you can use my name, but honestly you are just a giant faceless toolbag who doesn't want to say where you live, what you do, and hate facts/discussion.

PR drones have no facts. They write fantasy stories in weak attempts to manipulate public perception. The Freud firm's failure to manipulate the people on this forum is obvious. Desperation has set in. Even the support of Salazar's employee-children --Maria, Tony, and Alex-- hasn't swayed the tide one bit.

That's Them wrote:

That's the mark of the NOP team - sling mud. Sling as much of it as possible. Try to turn the conversation around to "Is Kara a bad person?"

Hey Kara took the first shots here. She brought this on herself. Rather than just privately talk to USADA (which she already did 2+ years ago and they determined there was no cheating) she had to go on TV in two countries and significantly, significantly damage Alberto and Galen will false statements.

Nothing will ever be quite the same for any of these people now.

About knowing the Gouchers, I asked because your comments bespeak a concern for them, and KG in particular. About the profession, you write limpidly, felicitously, with attention to structure, all of which is rarely seen in this neck of the woods, so I figured you were someone who writes a great deal (maybe even an attorney).When I was in college I used to write a training column for Marc Bloom, but my own writing has taken me elsewhere. I did correspond with Hudson briefly before the Beijing Olympics about acclimating oneself to heat. There was a guy eons ago in NY who won every hot weather long distance event, in part because he would train in the summer in long sleeve shirts and sweat pants (yes, this goes way back), so we exchanged notes about that. I used to coach some guys a long time ago, but now I only coach a 63 year old guy who I had coached when he was in high school and college. Yikes! One thing I've noticed is that there are no books (or my ignorance abounds)--either training or physiology--on older runners. Well, I'm babbling, so best of luck on the book and thanks for the response.

correct wrote:

She was revealed to be dishonest:

1) She lied about how and when she got the Cytomel bottle.

2) The comments about Galen's AR in Brussells were misleading.

1) On what basis are you claiming that she lied about the Cytomel? I really hope you're not being led astray by Salazar's blundering attempt at deception in his "open letter."

Kara was given the bottle with Salazar's handwriting on it in March 2011, when she was on Levoxyl but had no prescription for Cytomel. By the time the WCs in South Korea rolled around five months later, Dr Brown had written her a 'script for Cytomel and e-mailed Salazar with instructions for how she should take it. In his "open letter," Salazar attempts to cover up the former using the latter. He's like a guy with an unpaid parking ticket from five years ago in his glove box who insists, "No, I paid that!" by producing a receipt from the local court -- one pertaining to a second parking ticket received later.

If you think Salazar's letter isn't rife with obvious attempts to mislead readers, then you need to do more than scan it. Among other things, he lists a clearly deflated percentage of athletes he's worked with who have been diagnosed as hypothyroid by the one doctor to whom he refers all of his athletes to, a guy based in Texas. Virtually no one has spent time vetting this "letter." Dave Epstein did this, and his reward from many of the posters here (and not just the fifth-degree mouth-breathers whose names I will omit) is a series of blind accusations that he's unfairly biased.

Almost no one who claims that Salazar's letter is convincing offers any firm reason for saying so. If any of the people he lashes out at in his "letter" have lawyers going over it, they will turn it into confetti and laugh while they do it.

2) If Kara was wrong about someone being unable to run a great race clean in the immediate aftermath of feeling like ass, that doesn't make her a liar. It just makes her wrong.

MikeM wrote:

MikeM wrote:

Sure...you can use my name, but honestly you are just a giant faceless toolbag who doesn't want to say where you live, what you do, and hate facts/discussion.

PR drones have no facts. They write fantasy stories in weak attempts to manipulate public perception. The Freud firm's failure to manipulate the people on this forum is obvious. Desperation has set in. Even the support of Salazar's employee-children --Maria, Tony, and Alex-- hasn't swayed the tide one bit.

And pathetic toolbags use others handles, add little value to any conversation and call people names like a little child.

As people have pointed out, Kara took shots first calling Galen/NOP/Salazar are doper. Those are extremely serious allegations. Excuse all the people who have jobs and real lives for wanting them to be substantiated. Not by talking to the media, but with facts. That is happening. So lets let things play out and see what happens. If Nike and Salazar hired a PR firm, it won't matter in a real investigation. Just like Kara/Magness/Etc saying things to the media won't. It will come down to what the facts of the matter are.

That's probably true, and I'm surely no more immune to bias than anyone else; I can only be on guard for it. I like to think that all else being equal and the athlete were someone I didn't know at all, I would have and offer the same opinions, but who knows?

That sounds like Benji Durden, except for the part about training in New York.

As far as I know, you're right. And the closer I get to bona fide geezerhood, the more I ponder such topics.

Thanks for your nice words and good luck with your own work. I suspected that you've generated words and phrases on a professional level yourself.

MikeM wrote:

As people have pointed out, Kara took shots first calling Galen/NOP/Salazar are doper.

Do you think the fact that she spoke to USADA and the media concerning what she clearly believes is serious misconduct on the part of her former coach is grounds for calling her an attention whore, washed up, overemotional, and far worse, along with leveling criticism just as blind and scathing at her husband? If so, do you think that this standard applies to everyone athlete who makes allegations of misconduct against a coach or other mentor?

MikeM wrote:

Those are extremely serious allegations. Excuse all the people who have jobs and real lives for wanting them to be substantiated.

"Excuse" in what way? Anyone who complains that Kara didn't tell the media everything she knows or believes the moment she spoke to the BBC reporter is either an idiot in the extreme or exceptionally obtuse. You yourself say, "lets let things play out and see what happens," so what's your own hurry? Your job and real life should help dispel the pain of you unfairly having to wait for more information.