Is "Physiological Zones" Training Outdated?

No doubt there is some uncertainty as to the origins of the protons. But wellnow's assertion that "we don't produce lactic acid" is just idiotic. Just because the protons might not come from lactic acid disassociation does not mean lactic acid is not a byproduct of anaerobic catabolism in muscle cells. I guess all those blood tests and muscle biopsies must have been faked! :)

Robergs et al show that the origin of the protons is non mitochondrial ATP hydrolysis.

They also show that lactic acid is not produced and that it is a biochemical impossibility for lactate to release a proton into solution.

You need to study the text properly, and that is going to take you a long time. I doubt that you have the interest or the inclination Skuj, you couldn't concentrate for long enough.

I should also mention that I doubt you have the mental capacity to understand the basic chemistry necessary, Skuj.

Is this Steve Magness trolling again?

Is there a "wellnow" imposter lurking?

I guess that was one of my first questions: do the blood tests and muscle biopsies actually find lactic acid? I had the impression that blood lactate measurements measure lactate, and pH measurements measure changes in pH, and the causal link to lactic acid has just simply been assumed all along. Since even those who claim that it comes from lactic acid, also claim that lactic acid quickly disassociates into Lactate- and H+, I presume that even this group didn't ever observe, or don't expect to observe, lactic acid.

u r wrong wrote:

No doubt there is some uncertainty as to the origins of the protons. But wellnow's assertion that "we don't produce lactic acid" is just idiotic. Just because the protons might not come from lactic acid disassociation does not mean lactic acid is not a byproduct of anaerobic catabolism in muscle cells. I guess all those blood tests and muscle biopsies must have been faked! :)

rekrunner wrote:

Is there a "wellnow" imposter lurking?

Yes. And even though I reported that troll, the post plus my reply is still there 24 hours later. Are the mods trying to tell us something, that my guess is right? I know Magness does a lot of trolling here and has done for several years, but no-one but me has told him to stop as far as I know.

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

I guess that was one of my first questions: do the blood tests and muscle biopsies actually find lactic acid? I had the impression that blood lactate measurements measure lactate, and pH measurements measure changes in pH, and the causal link to lactic acid has just simply been assumed all along. Since even those who claim that it comes from lactic acid, also claim that lactic acid quickly disassociates into Lactate- and H+, I presume that even this group didn't ever observe, or don't expect to observe, lactic acid.

[quote]

Exactly rekrunner, it has always been assumed that the metabolic pathways suggested by Meyerhoff back in 1921 are correct and unquestionable.

But what does is mean to the runner and the coach that lactate production is not the source of the acidosis, since there is such an obvious coincidence of both accumulating in the muscle?

Robergs et al bring our attention to the fact that acidosis does not necessarily cause fatigue, even though scienticians have been trying to prove that link for more than 100 years. That is the epitome of bad science, isn't it? trying to prove a hypothesis rather than testing the hypothesis.

Robergs et al show that as protons accumulate, muscle force is reduced, though they are not cause and effect. The source of the protons is ATP turnover from Glycogenolysis and Glycolysis, so called anaerobic respiration, but as this supply dimishes the accumlulation of protons, can no longer be buffered by the Creatine Kinase reaction or Lactate production. So it is reasonable to assume that fatigue causes acidosis rather than the reverse. An hypothesis worthy of investigation dontcha think?

I guess several competing hypotheses can be tested in parallel. I'm not sure scientists have been trying that hard to prove "acidosis causes fatigue". At least the few blurbs posted above simply take it for granted. We'll know more sooner or later. I was accused before of being "blinded by science", but I'm also pragmatic. The question that interests me most is "what does it mean to the runner and the coach"?I'm not as interested in what causes what, unless finding that out can, for example, show us a way to decouple Lactate- production from H+ production, if that can lead to better performances.Otherwise, we continue training on the time proven principal that we periodically flood our muscles with lactate, hoping this is the best way to stimulate the body to make the right adaptations, to race faster and longer.

Lactate production and acidosis will always be connected as Lindinger informs us because of the Strong Ion Difference. It is a biochemical symbiosis (for want of a better word) preventing electrical forces from building up in solution. Lindinger also points out that protons may possibly not be transported out of the muscle cell by with lactate, or trasported across cell membranes, such as those of the mitochonria.

But whatever is going on, all we need to know for athletic training purposes is that acidosis is an indicator of failing muscle force production. The advantage being that the protons send a message signal to pain receptors, informing us of impending fatigue, hence the long standing assumption that H+ causes fatigue.

If we use that awareness to direct our training, then we can do more speed endurance work by avoiding the pain rather than trying to see how much we can endure pain, which is not an intelligent way to train. What I am suggesting is that progressively building the pace, but avoiding great fatigue allows us to do a very large volume of high intensity work. To promote the adaption to alos starting fast, we should also do speed endurance workouts where pace is constantly maintained, and a small amount of training where we are hanging on in the last 100m even though the pace is slowing.

There is nothing new in what I am suggesting, but, by applying more intelligence to the structure of these workouts, the possibilities for big improvements and injury/ilnees avoidance is considerable.

I think the term "flooding the muscles with lactate" is inappropriate. Bearing in mind that lactate metabolism is carbohydrate metabolim, that term is a relevant as saying "eat lots of carbs" It's what you do with that fuel that is important. How well you pace yourself in training and racing, and this superior pace judgement leads to adatpions in the nervous system which allow us to hold different paces for longer.

Really great post wellnow!!!

Thanks maardn. I think we are in a minority though. People need something to blame for the severity of speed endurance workouts. Rather than point to the obvious, i.e. heat accumulation, fuel depletion, nervous fatigue etc. they gonna blame 'lactic acid' cuz that's what it says in all the books.

If we look at Seb Ooe's training in the Martin and Coe book, that is more or less the same as what I am describing above. It is a shame that Martin's descriptions of the physiology don't match the logic of the training. Martin is/was obsessed with 'lactic acidosis' he even talks about blood acidity, which is a biochemical impossibility.