Lydiard/Wetmore Talk Recap

ha wrote:

"12 yr old girls are capable of doing 20 mile runs."

Something about hemoglobin in the young makes them 1/3 more efficient than adults, or some ridiculous number like that. I'll try to find the article...

I believe that is Mike Kosgei, who tried to coach the Finish team.

That's one thing Lydiard is wrong about...he thinks americans are the same as the Kenyans and can do steady long runs at a young age. There not the same and if you give most americans age 12-18 a diet of long steady runs they will break down and get injured.

And here is a reason that Americans will never be as good as the Kenyans or Ethiopians. We can't, it's too hard, they are made from steel and have springs for legs... blah, blah, blah.

That's one thing Lydiard is wrong about...he thinks americans are the same as the Kenyans and can do steady long runs at a young age. There not the same and if you give most americans age 12-18 a diet of long steady runs they will break down and get injured.

Sure like you tell that one to his face.

"If you can't do the mileage, then you need to slow down"

little red wrote:

That's one thing Lydiard is wrong about...he thinks americans are the same as the Kenyans and can do steady long runs at a young age. There not the same and if you give most americans age 12-18 a diet of long steady runs they will break down and get injured.

all it takes is progression. start at a 1000-1500mi first year and ass 10mi/wk/yr. By the time they're 22, they've run 22,000 miles and can run 4000-5000my/yr

Peddle that attitude over at RWOL! Lydiard is right and your ilk are the reason we cannot compete. We can't make kids try harder?! They will break down?! We don't give enough gold stars and hugs?!

Don't you think the reason kids are getting fatter is that we adults stopped pushing them? We quit requiring P.E at school? We don't make them play outside any longer? Oh, their thumbs are super muscular from Playstation but they can't play anything physical for more than five minutes.

Pathetic!

It's funny that many say kids can't do the mileage, yet look at other sports. I know kids that started basketball at 4 and when do kids start soccer - 2 or 3? These kids are doing exactly what Trackhead is saying, accumulating hours in their respective sports from a very early age, so by the time they are 13, they are playing up to 6-7 hours per day.

Another tidbit that I would add.

There is this rumor that Lydiad's guys did only singles ... last night he said that his guys ran for ~1 hour in the morning, in addition to the usual training ... 60min/90min/60min/120+min, etc - they simply didn't count their morning run mileage.

Again, someone please correct me if they heard otherwise.

That is exactly what I heard ... BUT the morning runs are designed as just easy jogging. If I remember the books correctly, he believes that any supplementary running must be done very easy, but that any amount of extra running you can squeeze in will help you in the long run.

little red wrote:

That's one thing Lydiard is wrong about...he thinks americans are the same as the Kenyans and can do steady long runs at a young age. There not the same and if you give most americans age 12-18 a diet of long steady runs they will break down and get injured.

Maybe the ones running now, but that kind of blanket statement is false. I read the books when I was 12 and tried to do the schedules. I found that they had too many hard days in a row and probably didn't interpret them right, he also prescribed higher mileage than I could do at 14-15-16, but I did 60 miles a week as a frosh (1:45 long run - probably 15 miles), 70 a week after sohomore year 14-15 mile long run in 1:24-1:45 (6:00-7:00 pace). And moved up from there as a junior.

I was never injured nor did I find it particularly difficult. The hardest thing about 90-120 minute runs for High Schoolers is them WANTING to do it. If they don't want it they will fail.

intersting, because getting the long runs in was never a problem in HS -- our coach ran with us until we were too fast for him; we were taught why every run was important to our training and what it was doing to us.

xc1000 wrote:

Some pictures of last night's events:

http://boulderrunning.com/gallery/lydiard

That's what Wetmore looks like. He is one ugly & freaky looking dude.

Ok thats fine to believe that, however I hope your not the same person that comes on here and bashes wetmore for injuring his athletes. Most of his athletes struggle with injuries in there first year or two in the program...this is because of the steady long run at age 17-18. I think Wetmore is the best college coach in the nation, however that's one aspect of his training that has lead to injury for his younger runners. There's no problem when running long when young, just not 20 milers at age 12 and HARD 20 milers every week when your under 18.. for most people.

a couple other observations while i am posting...

I agree with wetmore when he said Lydiard is the greatest coach of all-time. How ever not every one is of the same genetic makeup, what about the people who can easily run that 22 mile loop off of 50 miles a week? Do they still need to spend months and months doing what comes natural to them....so that when they do the 5 weeks of anearobic work the may need 4 weeks just to get down to race pace in a workout. What about his beliefs on altitude? It's quite obvious that he's off on that aspect of training.

Lydiard is genuius, I think that 80% of americans who follow his plans closely will excell long term...as long as they are not under the age of 18 and for some before 21....every ones different...you never will hear lydiard say that.

here is a progression I outlined on TAFNews, let me know what you think:

someone who comes out first year in HS, no serious running background:

First Year of HS:

Lot's of 25-30mi weeks, occasionally a ~35

Second Year of HS (2000mi yr)

Summer: 440mi (44/wk avg, weeks as high as mid 50s)

XC: 400mi (40/wk avg)

Winter: 460mi (46/wk avg)

PreTrack: 380mi (38/wk avg)

Track: 320mi (32/wk avg)

Third Year of HS (2500mi yr)

Summer: 550 (55/wk avg, weeks as high as 65, 70)

XC: 500 (50/wk avg, some 60+ weeks)

Winter: 575 (57.5/wk, highs of 60-70s)

PreTrack: 450 (45/avg, lows in the 30s, highs in the 50s)

Track: 425 (42.5 avg, lows in 30s, high of ~50)

Fourth year of HS (3000mi yr)

Summer: 660 (66/wk avg, weeks as high as 80)

XC: 600 (60/wk avg, weeks as high as ~70)

Winter: 690 (69/wk avg, weeks as high as 80s)

PreTrack: 540 (54/wk avg, highs in the 60s)

Track: 510 (avg of 51, highs at 60, and droppping to 40, maybe 35 for end of season racing)

Another tidbit that I would add.

There is this rumor that Lydiad's guys did only singles ... last night he said that his guys ran for ~1 hour in the morning, in addition to the usual training ... 60min/90min/60min/120+min, etc - they simply didn't count their morning run mileage.

Again, someone please correct me if they heard otherwise.

CO-Runner,

you heard it right. However, Snell has been saying that Arthur is not correct on this issue. Peter says that "peak" weeks were 100 mpw, and all in single runs. Don't forget that these guys held jobs during their time training, they were not, like our pro-runners today, free to run any time of the day. In Lydiard's biography he even talks about how some of his athletes filled in on his morning milk delivery route while he was out of the country. Can you imagine being a late 30 something year old, working in a shoe factory by the day, delivering milk in the early am and still running 70-250 miles per week? That was Arthur.

Glenn

It wouldn't suprise me that there are minor discrepencies from what Lydiard advices to what his athletes did.

little red wrote:

every ones different...you never will hear lydiard say that.

That is completely FALSE. He said it last night as a matter of fact. Almost every answer he gave was a variation on "you should be able to figure out what works best for you and vary things accordingly." He said that about the efforts, about the number of repeats, about how long to make the long run, the total mileage, etc. That's why his training is often listed in times instead of mileage -- because everyone is different.

Anyway, I would try and get my facts in order before attempting to disagree with the greatest coach in history.